Data: Wrong; Sustainability: Don't care; Robert Wintner: Aquarium trade should stop!

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

Are you implicating that the typical small business owner has not even the slightest notion regarding their own finances? That is a ridiculous and heavy handed assessment of the situation! Where's your evidence? Cite your sources?

No, they do not land at the same price. No, they are not identical looking animals.

Allow me to illustrate:

Typical captive-bred orchid dottyback






Typical wild-caught orchid dottyback






Typical captive-bred fang blenny







Typical wild-caught fang blenny






There is a noticeable and obvious difference in quality between these samples. This is even more obvious in the most ubiquitous captive-bred marine fish of them all, the clownfish. Next time you're looking at a CB clownfish that isn't a $300+ Grade A Picasso or whatever, look at its gills and the profile of its head. More often than not, they'll be flared and notched, in that order.

I'm all for captive rearing and all and there are definitely a few farms out there that push out high quality stock (Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN is one of them), but the vast majority (I'm looking at you, ORA) don't seem to care about letting out only top quality fish if they're not worth triple digits. This is something that should not be supported any more than one would support a puppy mill. Yes, I'm going there. Ethics all-in.

Tack onto this that the average LANDED price (no, not every city has access to a local breeder) is often 1.5-10x higher than the LANDED price of a WC animal and you'll be quick to conclude what the "true" motivations of a typical LFS owner are.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Are you implicating that the typical small business owner has not even the slightest notion regarding their own finances? That is a ridiculous and heavy handed assessment of the situation! Where's your evidence? Cite your sources?

Many of them yes. The old school thought is to make money off the dry goods and the livestock just draw people in. Many aquarium stores expect and take a loss on livestock. Box stores and mom and pop "pet stores" tend to be in this category.

Evidence and sources? I don't think they will let me show you their price lists, losses, and finances.

No, they do not land at the same price. No, they are not identical looking animals.
There is a noticeable and obvious difference in quality between these samples. This is even more obvious in the most ubiquitous captive-bred marine fish of them all, the clownfish. Next time you're looking at a CB clownfish that isn't a $300+ Grade A Picasso or whatever, look at its gills and the profile of its head. More often than not, they'll be flared and notched, in that order.

I'm all for captive rearing and all and there are definitely a few farms out there that push out high quality stock (Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN is one of them), but the vast majority (I'm looking at you, ORA) don't seem to care about letting out only top quality fish if they're not worth triple digits. This is something that should not be supported any more than one would support a puppy mill. Yes, I'm going there. Ethics all-in.

ORA is often chided for very poor culling practices. Many of the defects that are commonly seen in Clownfish are not genetic, rather poor culturing conditions. Even something as simple as misbarring is controlled with diet and water quality.

Good quality rearing techniques provide specimens of wild caught quality. Take Sustainable Aquatics for example. Compare a SA Clownfish to an ORA Clownfish...there is no comparison. The SA Clownfish is many times nicer than an ORA Clownfish. I have both wild caught and captive bred Orchid Dottybacks, and if I didn't tell you which one was which you would never know. Sure, there are terrible examples of captive bred fish out there, but there are also excellent examples.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

Many of them yes. The old school thought is to make money off the dry goods and the livestock just draw people in. Many aquarium stores expect and take a loss on livestock. Box stores and mom and pop "pet stores" tend to be in this category.

What? As an employee of dry goods wholesaler/manufacturer, I would most assuredly appreciate it if you pointed me towards these dry goods-do gooders. Barring that, I must strongly disagree. With any store worth its salt (tee hee), the exact opposite is true. Most stores rely on their livestock to carry their bottom line. Why? Because they don't want to compete in the same arena with the "big boys", businesses that have a lot of capital invested into their online marketplace and dry goods inventory. It's just not worth it to grind out the 20-35% margin vs. 100-500%+ (frags) margin on livestock.

Want some evidence? Take a look at some of the more respected businesses Stateside:

http://www.worldwidecorals.com/

http://www.aquatouch.com/index.html

http://www.vividaquariums.com/

etc, etc... Compare their livestock sections to their dry goods sections. These guys are simply not interested in competing with the likes or Premium Aquatics or BRS. Well, guess what, there are a hundred times more of these sorts of businesses than there are Premiums or BRS's. In Canada, one need look no further than J&L Aquatics vs. the world to see that the trend is reiterative rather than unique. J&L, Premium, BRS, etc have all done an incredible job of securing their place within the industry and, in doing so, have carved out a designation for most of the other businesses to make their niche (livestock).

Originally Posted by Myka

Evidence and sources? I don't think they will let me show you their price lists, losses, and finances.

Then I suppose we come to a standstill. If possible, I am hesitant to make a call to authority, but in this case, it is warranted; I have a fairly wide bird's eye view of the industry and your impression is the exception rather than the rule.

Originally Posted by Myka

ORA is often chided for very poor culling practices. Many of the defects that are commonly seen in Clownfish are not genetic, rather poor culturing conditions. Even something as simple as misbarring is controlled with diet and water quality.

ORA is representative of the CB livestock sectional.

Originally Posted by Myka

Good quality rearing techniques provide specimens of wild caught quality. Take Sustainable Aquatics for example. Compare a SA Clownfish to an ORA Clownfish...there is no comparison. The SA Clownfish is many times nicer than an ORA Clownfish. I have both wild caught and captive bred Orchid Dottybacks, and if I didn't tell you which one was which you would never know. Sure, there are terrible examples of captive bred fish out there, but there are also excellent examples.

Again, your fish/experience is the exception, not the rule.

[gobytron]

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

Whether its global warming or acidification the signs are already apparent that this is a sick ecosystem...

Short of some technological miracle solution...we're probably the last reefers one way or the other...


Do you really think millions of people feed their families from this hobby?

That's a lot more than I would guess.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by gobytron

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

Whether its global warming or acidification the signs are already apparent that this is a sick ecosystem...

Short of some technological miracle solution...we're probably the last reefers one way or the other...


Do you really think millions of people feed their families from this hobby?

That's a lot more than I would guess.

I tend to agree with you, although I would give it a longer timeline, probably more like 100 years, maybe 200. Earth is resilient, look at what it has put up with already. I think it would be interesting to look into the future and see Earth's human population 1000 years from now.

Do I think that millions of people feed their families through the aquarium trade? The entire aquarium trade, yes. Not so many just in the MO trade. Think of all the collectors (corals, fish, rock), wholesalers, shippers, LFS owners and employees, captive breeders, biologists, equipment manufacturers. Not all of them rely on the MO trade 100%, but for many of them it makes a big portion of their livelihood.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by gobytron

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

I have a little more faith in our planet and the ability of life to adapt. Species evolve and some go extinct. And sometimes there is a major reset which can be caused by an asteroid, or maybe a nuclear winter in the future.... All it would take is a pandemic to reduce our impact.... We are just a mere microscopic blip in the history of this planet.

When I was a kid, I was told that most of the world's O2 was produced (and CO2 was absorbed) in the Amazon, and if we don't stop deforestation there, the planet will die. Well, they have not stopped, and we're still here, plus I don't hear much about that anymore. More recently, I watched a show on Oasis that claimed that some forest in Siberia was producing most of the world's O2. And of course, the marine biologists would like us to believe that the ocean's kelp and other algae produce most of our O2. I honestly don't know what to believe now.

And what happened to the ozone scare. I thought the holes were opening up in the south and north, and we are all going to be fried with UV and get cancer. Don't hear much about that anymore either.

Now it's all about global warning, and how we have to stop burning carbon. I wonder what we will be talking about 20 years from now. I am sure there will be something else.

Having said all that, I do believe we need to continue to our efforts with reducing pollution on land and water, and be better at managing and conserving our resources. I think technology will help us with that, including solar power, carbon storage, and more efficient manufacturing.

On that front, I think we are already winning in some parts of the world, including the US and Canada. One example is LA. It is still bad there, but not as bad as it was 40 years ago. China needs to clean up its air, but I think they know that, and are working at it. So, I don't think the outlook is all bad.

I do wish the media (and Hollywood) would be a little less dramatic, and a little more honest with their reporting and documentaries. Sometimes, I think they make things worse, despite their apparently good intent, which misleads the public and prompts the politicians to make bad decisions.

But whatever happens, I think we all owe it to ourselves and everyone else to live a happy life. I think reefing (and other hobbies) are an important part of that. And the more we can share and help others, the better. Sure beats fighting/killing each other, doing drugs, or just watching TV.

[mrhasan]

Life always finds a way: evolution, extinction and new life forms are just some ways.

This planet is much more stronger than we are.

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

I have a little more faith in our planet and the ability of life to adapt. Species evolve and some go extinct. And sometimes there is a major reset which can be caused by an asteroid, or maybe a nuclear winter in the future.... All it would take is a pandemic to reduce our impact.... We are just a mere microscopic blip in the history of this planet.

When I was a kid, I was told that most of the world's O2 was produced (and CO2 was absorbed) in the Amazon, and if we don't stop deforestation there, the planet will die. Well, they have not stopped, and we're still here, plus I don't hear much about that anymore. More recently, I watched a show on Oasis that claimed that some forest in Siberia was producing most of the world's O2. And of course, the marine biologists would like us to believe that the ocean's kelp and other algae produce most of our O2. I honestly don't know what to believe now.

And what happened to the ozone scare. I thought the holes were opening up in the south and north, and we are all going to be fried with UV and get cancer. Don't hear much about that anymore either.

Now it's all about global warning, and how we have to stop burning carbon. I wonder what we will be talking about 20 years from now. I am sure there will be something else.

Having said all that, I do believe we need to continue to our efforts with reducing pollution on land and water, and be better at managing and conserving our resources. I think technology will help us with that, including solar power, carbon storage, and more efficient manufacturing.

On that front, I think we are already winning in some parts of the world, including the US and Canada. One example is LA. It is still bad there, but not as bad as it was 40 years ago. China needs to clean up its air, but I think they know that, and are working at it. So, I don't think the outlook is all bad.

I do wish the media (and Hollywood) would be a little less dramatic, and a little more honest with their reporting and documentaries. Sometimes, I think they make things worse, despite their apparently good intent, which misleads the public and prompts the politicians to make bad decisions.

But whatever happens, I think we all owe it to ourselves and everyone else to live a happy life. I think reefing (and other hobbies) are an important part of that. And the more we can share and help others, the better. Sure beats fighting/killing each other, doing drugs, or just watching TV.

Right on sir I am guessing one of the things that people will be fighting for is to stop wearing clothes so that the people in 3rd world country will get relieved from their "low-wage" paid jobs (without thinking something is better than nothing and that low wage might be keeping them and their families starving from death). Maybe they will put a ban on owning too many apparels? World is not dying, its us! And its the nature of human to blame it on something else and in this case: mother earth.

I am pretty sure dinosaurs were concerned about pooping here and there and releasing methane into the air (I am presuming they had big poop) and maybe the dino environmentalists put a ban on pooping and hence eating and maybe that's why they extinct (hey I just made up an evolutionary theory ). Earth is not weak

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

I am pretty sure dinosaurs were concerned about pooping here and there and releasing methane into the air (I am presuming they had big poop) and maybe the dino environmentalists put a ban on pooping and hence eating and maybe that's why they extinct (hey I just made up an evolutionary theory ). Earth is not weak

Ha, ha, yeah, I think your theory is just as good as many others that are being peddled in the name of science these days...

[Myka]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

I have a fairly wide bird's eye view of the industry and your impression is the exception rather than the rule.

For crap sake Albert, I clearly stated I was talking about mom and pop and box stores. Yeesh, you even quoted what I said. If you take a look at many of the LFS that support CanReef you will notice a large livestock section and a small dry goods section. It is obvious that these stores rely on livestock sales.

ORA is representative of the CB livestock sectional.

Yes, ORA is one representative. The largest one in North America, but that's like saying all meat markets are like Extra Foods/Superstore. You can't paint them all with the same brush.

Again, your fish/experience is the exception, not the rule.

If you are basing your entire captive bred opinion on ORA-raised fish you have a very limited view.


Anyway...I'm not here to argue with you about how an LFS makes money. We've both been involved in the aquarium industry for many years, and have obviously come to different conclusions which probably came from different experiences. Ciao.