LED Patents - Action Needed!

[StirCrazy]

ok here are some threads for ya to look through

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...uaria.marine.*

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

heres a good one to
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...03/feature.htm

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

anyways after these we are getting into 2004

Steve

[Ron99]

Hi Steve,

The patent with a controller is marginal to me as I think it is an obvious extension of what has been done with other types of lighting for a long time is therefore obvious and not patentable. As for the new continuation they have filed, who knows what the patent office will allow if others don't bring stuff to their attention.

I am aware of the stuff on nano-reef and I think Evilc66 over there is involved in this already. I was thinking more from the perspective of anything Canadian that could help them that they aren't already aware of. The US guys probably don't spend much time on Canadian boards The one you linked to from Canreef is probably to late as it would have to be before Orbitec filed their PPA in December of 2003.

[Ron99]

Sorry, meant the last Canreef link you posted. The others might be helpful to them.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry, meant the last Canreef link you posted. The others might be helpful to them.

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

Along for the ride

[sphelps]

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

actualy if you build your own they can take you to cort for infringment. usaly they don't as it costs to much for what they would get from an individual. now if they had proof of 100 people that built there own that might be worth it.

LEDs have actualy been testing out at higher PAR levels than MH when set up right, with none of the heat issues or buble replacment issues.

and finaly, they are not new.. been on systems in DIY sence 2001-2002, been avilable comercialy since 2004. so about as new as T5s.

Steve

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

Thanks, I'll forward the link to reefbuilders and see if they need pics.

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

1. Yes, technically they could sue you but it would not make economic sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers to recover a few thousand dollars in damages so in practice no DIYer would have a problem. However, it could endanger companies that sell DIY kits or parts to aquarists such as nanocustoms etc.

2. The only problem with LED systems at the moment is cost. And that is really an up front cost as the long term costs are probably less over 5 to 8 years when you look at lower energy consumption, less heat added to the tank so probably less chance of needing a chiller or other cooling mechanism for your tank and the elimination of bulb costs compared to MH or other systems where you change bulbs every 8 months to a year depending on what you're running. So if you actually do the math the overall costs of an LED system are probably lower, just all up front instead of over time.

3. LEDs are not just marketing but an advanced and energy efficient lighting source that, if done right, can accommodate any lighting needs you have from a cheaper fish only lighting fixture to a high PAR fixture for corals. There has been plenty of experience now with LEDs and lots of testing to show that they can produce as much or more PAR as any HM setup. In fact, some testing shows that the light is more tightly contained if using optics and the fall off of PAR as you go deeper in the tank is more linear with LEDs than with MH. that means that if you compare a MH to an LED setup that have the same PAR at the surface of the tank, you will likely have higher PAR at the bottom with LEDs than with MH. Many examples of great SPS colour and growth are out there too. Just check out some tanks on nano-reef.com or at reefcentral that run LEDs.

[sphelps]

So what's the issue? Are you looking to build and market LED fixtures and retro fits? If not I would let the people that want to worry about that. I assure you there is always a way around patents like this, monopolies only last so long. This type of thing happens all the time but competition always finds a way if there is potential market share available.

However I don't see much potential. I have never seen an LED system alone support an average size tank with mostly SPS corals. You could with the same reasoning stack a ton of NO florescence over one tank in hopes of it meeting the demands but it simply won't work.
I don't believe the intensity is there, simple as that. Yes they are efficient and very cool with all the programing options but that's it. The cost is not why these lights are not popular, if they worked as well as you say then more people would use them but unfortunately no one has really proven these to work as suggested. I offer the same challenge to you, very simple just present a tank that proves me wrong.

If they did work as well as the alternative I for one would use them, I love efficiency but it still needs to work. I spend plenty of money on good equipment that works well and is efficient.

[JDigital]

These are quite the LED tanks... I'm sure the LED setups weren't cheap at all, but sure does look like the tanks are doing well..










Now, I certainly am not an LED advocate, just thought I would post a few LED tanks to stir up discussion.