LED Patents - Action Needed!

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry, meant the last Canreef link you posted. The others might be helpful to them.

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

Along for the ride

[sphelps]

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

actualy if you build your own they can take you to cort for infringment. usaly they don't as it costs to much for what they would get from an individual. now if they had proof of 100 people that built there own that might be worth it.

LEDs have actualy been testing out at higher PAR levels than MH when set up right, with none of the heat issues or buble replacment issues.

and finaly, they are not new.. been on systems in DIY sence 2001-2002, been avilable comercialy since 2004. so about as new as T5s.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

actualy if you build your own they can take you to cort for infringment. usaly they don't as it costs to much for what they would get from an individual. now if they had proof of 100 people that built there own that might be worth it.

LEDs have actualy been testing out at higher PAR levels than MH when set up right, with none of the heat issues or buble replacment issues.

and finaly, they are not new.. been on systems in DIY sence 2001-2002, been avilable comercialy since 2004. so about as new as T5s.

Steve

No company with half a brain would sue a guy who built a similar product for personal use in his garage. If you're that worried maybe don't be so quick to show off your new light online with detailed plans on how you built it. But either way it will never happen, you're no threat to the company and they have better things to do with their money. The fact that they have such a patent should tell you they're not that stupid.

If they've been around for so long (6 years isn't that long BTW) then show me a pictures of a tank that has used LEDs for a good period of time for mostly SPS corals. If such a light fixture can't be used to support SPS corals it's about as useful as PCs and NOs. From what I know LEDs don't have the intensity to penetrate water deep enough, they have the par at the surface but that's it. This is why we need high output lighting and why you'll have a difficult time finding someone with success using LEDs alone.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

Thanks, I'll forward the link to reefbuilders and see if they need pics.

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

1. Yes, technically they could sue you but it would not make economic sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers to recover a few thousand dollars in damages so in practice no DIYer would have a problem. However, it could endanger companies that sell DIY kits or parts to aquarists such as nanocustoms etc.

2. The only problem with LED systems at the moment is cost. And that is really an up front cost as the long term costs are probably less over 5 to 8 years when you look at lower energy consumption, less heat added to the tank so probably less chance of needing a chiller or other cooling mechanism for your tank and the elimination of bulb costs compared to MH or other systems where you change bulbs every 8 months to a year depending on what you're running. So if you actually do the math the overall costs of an LED system are probably lower, just all up front instead of over time.

3. LEDs are not just marketing but an advanced and energy efficient lighting source that, if done right, can accommodate any lighting needs you have from a cheaper fish only lighting fixture to a high PAR fixture for corals. There has been plenty of experience now with LEDs and lots of testing to show that they can produce as much or more PAR as any HM setup. In fact, some testing shows that the light is more tightly contained if using optics and the fall off of PAR as you go deeper in the tank is more linear with LEDs than with MH. that means that if you compare a MH to an LED setup that have the same PAR at the surface of the tank, you will likely have higher PAR at the bottom with LEDs than with MH. Many examples of great SPS colour and growth are out there too. Just check out some tanks on nano-reef.com or at reefcentral that run LEDs.

[sphelps]

So what's the issue? Are you looking to build and market LED fixtures and retro fits? If not I would let the people that want to worry about that. I assure you there is always a way around patents like this, monopolies only last so long. This type of thing happens all the time but competition always finds a way if there is potential market share available.

However I don't see much potential. I have never seen an LED system alone support an average size tank with mostly SPS corals. You could with the same reasoning stack a ton of NO florescence over one tank in hopes of it meeting the demands but it simply won't work.
I don't believe the intensity is there, simple as that. Yes they are efficient and very cool with all the programing options but that's it. The cost is not why these lights are not popular, if they worked as well as you say then more people would use them but unfortunately no one has really proven these to work as suggested. I offer the same challenge to you, very simple just present a tank that proves me wrong.

If they did work as well as the alternative I for one would use them, I love efficiency but it still needs to work. I spend plenty of money on good equipment that works well and is efficient.

[JDigital]

These are quite the LED tanks... I'm sure the LED setups weren't cheap at all, but sure does look like the tanks are doing well..










Now, I certainly am not an LED advocate, just thought I would post a few LED tanks to stir up discussion.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by JDigital

These are quite the LED tanks... I'm sure the LED setups weren't cheap at all, but sure does look like the tanks are doing well..

Now, I certainly am not an LED advocate, just thought I would post a few LED tanks to stir up discussion.

Those don't support LED potential in my books, first one has no sign of any high light demanding corals and that fixture has 400 LEDS which is at least 400Ws, if that's a 6 foot tank then I think 10 36" T5 bulbs would be brighter.
The second tank is too short, if you want to prove the potential of LEDs we need to see them setup on an average size tank which is clearly a 90 gallon and 2 feet deep. That tank also seems to have gotten a lot brighter in the second pic and the fixture is conveniently out of frame

[StirCrazy]

the biggest problem is finding the stuff for a reasonable price. for example it is going to cost me about 600 bucks give or take to build the set up for my 30 gal tank, Ron is about 1200 for his tank.

money waise for me this is still not back concidering two 250 watt MH over the same tank would cost about 600 to get going also. the differance is I should get about 10 years of use from my system with no more money added. two MH on a 30 gal will definatly need a chiller, so there is another 600 bucks, then two bulbs a year for 10 years is another 2K. and if the calculations are right I will have over 400 PAR on the bottom of my tank wich is about inline with 250 watt DE MH. so I will have the same par output but only consume 200 watts of power instead of 500. and no heat issues as all the heat is disapated through the heat sink up into the air. then to top it all off I will be able to dim each color seperatly so I can get any color temp I want for the tank, and if I spend another couple hundred bucks I can put togeather a digital controler to slowly fade in the colors to different degrees at different times of the day and fade out again at sunset. since I will be running two white controlers and two blue, if I gwet some new frags, I can drop the intensity on one side of the tank where the new corals are and slowly bring it back up over a week or so to get the frags used to the light. features you just cant buy in systems that are out there right now.

Like I said the company could sue, but would they, no.. like I said and Ron said the cost is against it. it would be like metalica sueing the 20K people that downloaded there music, they wouldn't have sued 50 people, but if there are enough people to make the lawsuit worth itin the end then ya.

the reason we want the patent squashed is to encourage compatition. this would bring the overall cost of LEDs down making it cheeper to build. also it would allow bigger lighting companies the creat system. for instance if PFO would have been entering a market at the same time as 4 other lighting companies with the solaris, you can bet it would have been about 500 to 1K cheeper. Also it would open the doors for compinies to produce retrofit kits. right now the market is limited to people who can figure out resisters, electronic soldering, drilling and tapping, and you have to source the parts from about 4 different places.. heatsink from one, led's and drivers from another.. thermal paste from another, ect. So LEDs right now are only feasable to a slice of the reefing comunity than has the knowlage and skill sets to build them.