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Old 01-21-2003, 03:39 PM
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Default Black Ick, it's back...

Some of you may recall an outbreak I had with this on a Yellow Tang in quarantine a while back. Freshwater dip, re-start quarantine and all's been well.
For the past week my Lemon Peel Angel has been doin' the "itchy-scratchy". Last night I noticed a few (two) black spots on the gill cover area. Different tank. Also quarantined (clean tank). Same supplier.
I have never seen this ich over the years and now two in a row .

I'd value some opinions on how to go about solving this. The tankmates are a Lionfish and a Neon Damsel. The Lionfish screws-up my favored option of getting a pair of Cleaner Shrimp in there and going with the "natural solution". The Damsel has done the "twitch" only a couple of times in the past week that I have seen. Obviously an irritation there as well. Impossible to see, given its color. The Lionfish appears to be fine. I'm really not keen on tearing the tank down to catch them. Too early to freak out. Treating the tank is not an option and it would have to go fishless for a min. of six weeks as well...?

Tell me please if ya' agree with this approach; "Sit tight" for 3,4 or 5 days a see if their immunity is strong enough to overcome. If not, capture the Lionfish,(he'd be the easiest one to catch). Put him in a holding tank and take the Cleaner Shrimp from the other tank and put 'em in there to do their thing...? Remove the Shrimp after a few weeks, maybe three, and then remove Shrimp and re-introduce the Lionfish.
Remember my other post referring to my tanks as "parasitic timebombs" during the re-stocking process...? Kaboom
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Old 01-21-2003, 04:24 PM
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I am going to jump in where angels fear to tread. I will preface this by saying I have never heard of Black Ich, but that is probably my fault. However, if it is a parasite, and if you have no invertebrates in the tank, I would suggest hyposalinity. I myself kept a FOWLR tank at 1.016 for about six months. I had no problems at all. The way I understand it that parasites are invertebrates, and they literally blow up under hyposalinity conditions. I am like Mikey, I tried it, and I liked it.
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Old 01-21-2003, 04:26 PM
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Well, I have no experience with angels, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

I have limited experience with fish, so when I purchased my sailfin tang back in November I was totally caught off guard when it developed ick. At the time it was advised to me to ride it out, because tangs are ick magnets and it's not uncommon for them to go through a quick bout after introduction, because they're compromised slightly because they're stressed because they're in a new environment and etc. etc. etc. I was told to make sure I fed it well, feed it garlic, and it would come around.

Well, I did, and it did. All better now.

When I first got my yellow tang when I first got into the hobby, five years ago now (not the current YT I am currently caring for, different fish), he developed the black ick. In that case .... I found the 4 minute freshwater dip, was all that was needed. Spots fell off, and never came back. My take on this is, the fish was in a new environment, got stressed, got the spots, the freshwater dip was nothing more than a band-aid over the symptoms, but the fish recovered his immunity in time and that was the real causitive agent for his recovery.

So, consider this. Feed it well, consider a freshwater dip, and another thing you can check, is your SG. Check that it isn't elevated. I.e., make sure it's 1.025 not 1.026 or 1.027.

But, maybe none of this applies to angels. Maybe angels are really hard to keep. I honestly don't know; and hopefully someone who really does know can jump in here and give you some good advice so you have that to go on instead of my useless banter. If nothing else at least I bumped your thread up.

Good luck!
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Old 01-21-2003, 06:21 PM
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Have no fear Bob, we all know you're no angel !
And Tony, no such thing as "useless banter". Not when "throwin' ideas around" tryin' to solve problems. Glad to hear your Desjardin Tang recovered. I've wandered about that a few times.
So, hyposalinity...with live rock ? (Copepods etc.) Obviously the Starfish and the beginning of what corals I've put in place would have to come out.
The salinity level has crossed my mind though. I increased it from 1.022 to 1.026. I did this approx. four months ago when I began adding corals. Too much reading...? Soft corals will do all right at levels I originally had ?
There has been a stress factor atop of the relatively new enviroment. Me. I've been screwin' around in there more than I should and I know better. ops: That's easily corrected/eliminated. Diet's been premium/varied. Haven't done the garlic thing as much as I had with the Tang. (It was much simpler soaking Nori in the juices.) What is an effective method to obtain garlic "liquid" from from fresh crushed cloves ?
So, over the next few days I'll adjust SG. Should I use a kalk mix or just water during that process :? ?
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Old 01-21-2003, 06:49 PM
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What I did with garlic was suggested to me by Doug Lowey, get those garlic pills from the the grocery/Shoppers Drug Mart/health-food-store/where-ever, and sqeeze those onto the food. Only thing is I found that, at least with the ones I used, the smell of garlic in the room after feeding was pretty strong. I'm not garlic'ing my fish food any more (the fish don't seem to mind, knock on wood!)

If I was lowering SG, what I'd do, is, keep the daily topup as kalk, but when I take a gallon of salt out, I'd replace that with fresh water (non kalk'd). Clarification: I am only referring to dropping your SG from 1.026 to 1.025. I don't know how much difference that .001 makes, but I thought 1.025 was the upper limit where you wanted your SG.
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Old 01-22-2003, 01:52 AM
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I would recommend feeding OSI flake, if you are not already(you can soak that in a little kyolic garlic powder and water). That will go miles in building up their natural immunity. The tang and angel will devour nori, so rub a cut clove of garlic on that as well.

Ultimately, nutritious feeding and optimum tank conditions will of course be the key to long term disease free success with fish.

Salinity must be kept much lower than 1.016 to kill parasites, I believe it is effective at 1.009, which must be done in a QT environment.

Possibly moving the lion and letting the shrimp in is an option for the short term relief of the fish, while they pile on some natural immunity.

Without knowing more about your tank care regime and test levels, that is about all I can offer. Hope it is of some help. :?
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Old 01-22-2003, 02:54 AM
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Yes, 1.009.....or 1.010.
Reduce the salinity over 4 or 5 days to the lower level, and do it in a QT tank. You will kill your invertebrates in the main tank if you do it in there! :shock:
Keep the fish in QT for a month....a full month. Make sure that you keep your main tank WELL fed during this time, as healthy fat fish are less likely to contract diseases.
At the end of the month, take 4 or 5 days to bring the salinity back up again to the main tank level, and re-introduce the fish.
I have found hyposalinity to be a much safer and reliable method for curing fish of parasites than copper.

HTH, Doug!

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Old 01-22-2003, 03:40 AM
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1.009 is the "target" salinity I've read of in the past for hyposalinity as well. Tonite the Lionfish is doing the "shake" and has "shed" once as well. I read some time ago Lionfish will shake and leave a "cloud of mucous" behind. I'm so glad to see he's in the game too now Guess what the most common word in my vocabulry is tonite...?

I dunno' if waiting this out is a good option. I've got the 20g quarantine running right now and I have enough water prepared to get the 40g goin' tomorrow.
Mitch, keeping the "main tank well fed..." Are you refering to the quarantine/hospital tank(fish) or the bio-filter in the main tank.
Deb, I haven't tried OSI flake. I will. The Tang mentioned is in my other tank and is doin' great. It's the Damsel, Lion, and Lemon Peel Angel in my 90g that are givin' me ulcers... I like to think my "tank care regime and levels" are top-notch. I like my fish more than most people I meet... I shortened quarantine on this fish by a week because it looked awesome from the start. Any regrets...

There's some humour here though...this afternoon I was warming a pail of water in the big sink downstairs and I had my floating thermometer/hydrometer in there and I figured I'd give it a "stir" and snap...busted the hydrometer. There's that word again...
So tomorrow I'll get some OSI flakes and replace my hydrometer. All fish are infected. Might as well pull 'em and treat 'em and admire an empty tank for 4-6 weeks eh ?
Would you agree it's best to move the fish with their parasite infested Sikome Lake water and then reduce SG as Mitch said. 3-4 days. It'd be less stressful than "clean" water.
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Old 01-22-2003, 03:49 AM
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If you find a place in town that sells OSI could you let me know where? Thanks!
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Old 01-22-2003, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphinus
If you find a place in town that sells OSI could you let me know where? Thanks!
Well, as you already know MOPS carries it. But Dez told me he stocks it, so maybe that will save you guys a 5-page group order.....
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