Calcium problems.

[StirCrazy]

well for the last 3 months I have been having a hard time keeping my calcium levels up.. and they have slowly been falling, I hooked up my Calcium reactor and that fixed my low alk right away but my calcium was still low (it was comming up but very slowly and not at a steady rate) so I tested again and my Ca was the same as two days previous. so I was reading and I stumbled across a article about magnesium levels and ca levels and I started wondering if my Mg levels were maby low and it was interfearing with my Ca levles. So when I went to the meating I bought a Mg test kit at J&L and today I did a full range of tests..

what I found was that my Mg level is only a little over 1/2 of what it should be ( I got 800 ppm for a result and NSW is 1300 to 1500)

so today I called J&L and ordered seachem Mg suplement (and a couple books [img]smile.gif[/img] )

so I will bring my levels up to proper and keep you informed of the results. the main article that got me thinking was one stating that some of the big salt companies cut down the amount of Mg in there mixes to save on money.. so I am going to test a batch of new salt mix on my next water change and see what that comes out at.. if it is normal then something in my tank is depleating Mg.

Steve

[SuperFudge]

Bump up co2 and effluent rates both preportionatly(sp?) and monitor results.

Alk should stay (close) to the same while Ca ++ levels will rise.

I would refrain from adding any Mg until yor reactor has been dialed in to meet your demands.
Then it may be a better time to test, and add if needed.

What is your alk and Ca++ now?

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Superfudge:
Bump up co2 and effluent rates both preportionatly(sp?) and monitor results.

Alk should stay (close) to the same while Ca ++ levels will rise.

I would refrain from adding any Mg until yor reactor has been dialed in to meet your demands.
Then it may be a better time to test, and add if needed.

What is your alk and Ca++ now?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well I dialed it in and it is steady my tank alk is 10.7 and my effulent alk is 22. my feed rate is 2 gph and I am running 60 bbpm.
my tank Ca is up today from last reading by another 10 ppm for a whopping 210ppm the effulent ca level is 380 ppm, the effulant values have been stable for over a week and the tank Alk has been stable sence I hooked the reactor up (almost two weeks ago) the only changing varable is the Ca wich isn't responding as it should..

my Mg tests today confermed what I thought and I will bring it up vary slowly to ~1200 ppm whare everything I have read says it should be at a min.. also documents show that levels of 800 and less can lead to Ca crashes so I want to get safe from that at the least..

Steve

[ 15 September 2002, 21:58: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[titus]

Hello,

I'd increase the CO2 and effluent rate. Your Ca level from your reactor is rather low. It could be a lot higher.

But please e-mail me once you find out if it's the magnesium that's playing tricks with you.

Titus

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

One way to increase magnesium is to add epsom salts (available at most large drugs stores). The other way is to get some domolite (yah...that stuff you put on your lawn) and put it in the calcium reactor. The reactor will release the magnesium and bring it back up and maintain magnesium levels

In a normal reef system, the magnesium levels will eventually fall. This is a naturally occuring thing and it is what forms the ocean beds -- which are calcite, domolite and aragonite. Depending on the magnesium and calcium levels, the calcium and magnesium will eventually become one of those three rock types. I am a bit surprise that your magnesium levels are so low in such a short time. So, I would double check those results. One way of dropping magnesium levels very fast is to supersaturate the calcium, but I doubt that happened.

In the early days, magnesium defficiency was a normal thing and epsom salts were the common cure. So, salt manufacturers jacked up the magnesium to above NSW to account for the precipitated magnesium. Maybe, there is a reversal in this trend.

I can't remember who wrote those articles in the old days...but I think Randy mentions it in his recent ones.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[ 16 September 2002, 00:06: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Titus:
Hello,

I'd increase the CO2 and effluent rate. Your Ca level from your reactor is rather low. It could be a lot higher.

But please e-mail me once you find out if it's the magnesium that's playing tricks with you.

Titus

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ok ow question I have about this.. Also for you Marc, if I increase both my feed rate and my co2 I stay the same. shouldent I just be increasing my co2 to get mode desolving? maby I am not understanding something here but if I increas both equaly then i just put more water of the same proportion don't I?

also tell me if you think my thinking is screwed but this is my theory on the low ca level outof the reactor..

Sence you need a higher Mg level to get 420ish ca levels wouldent it stand to reason that if the water you are putting through your reactor is deficient in Mg then it won't be able to desolve a lot of Ca? so if this is the case maby the reason for the low Ca out put of my reactor when compared to the normal (reactor) Alk levels is because of Mg deficieny also..

Victor, I was looking at my epsom salts and I was going to use them but there are other compounds in them also that I don't want in my tank.. a proper *pure* buffer is only 9.00 for more than I will ever need so I figured what the heck.. also I wanted to order a couple books anyways hehe...

anyways my thinking might be on or off but it won't harm anything to slowly bring my levels up to *normal* and see... and sence it will be here in a couple days if it doesent start making a diff then I can look else whare.. as the Ca level should increase in proportion to the rise of the Mg level if that is the problem.

Steve

[titus]

Hello,

shouldent I just be increasing my co2 to get mode desolving? maby I am not understanding something here but if I increas both equaly then i just put more water of the same proportion don't I?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I meant increase both but increase the CO2 more. Obviously if everything else are okay and your ca level is low in your effluent stream then that means you don't have enough CO2 to dissolve the media. The reason I asked you to try this route is because the media would release Mg as well.

What is your effluent pH BTW?

Titus

[Doug]

Steve, Your correct about the keeping magnesium levels around 1300ppm. Before my reactor, I used ESV brand.

My reactor had no problem keeping the magnesium levels at 1400ppm. Its a by-product of the media. I used only ARM.

Your effluent needs to have an alk. level close to 40dkh. Depending on the reactors efficiency, I ran mine at a fast drip,{almost steady stream} and about 60bbm.

[SuperFudge]

Originally posted by StirCrazy:


ok ow question I have about this.. Also for you Marc, if I increase both my feed rate and my co2 I stay the same. shouldent I just be increasing my co2 to get mode desolving? maby I am not understanding something here but if I increas both equaly then i just put more water of the same proportion don't I?

Steve

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Steve,

If you just increase just your co2, this will tend to increase your alk only,and with an increase in alk comes a drop in Ca++,or atleast Ca++ will remain the same in the effluent.

If both are increased perportionatly,the increase in co2 seems to be counteracted by an equal increase in effluent rate.
I dont really understand the chemical reactions happening,but i know this to be true through the use of my reactors.

Your alk may slightly increase initially,but will level out....once you are close to the desired alk,then leave co2 alone and increase effluent only.

Like wise,if your effluent only is increased or high in comparison to your c02 rate your effluent would be higher in Ca++.

But if this is all thats done,you will end up with a higher Ca and a dropping alk,and if your alk is at the desired level now...it really isnt achieving the results you wish.

Im also pretty sure you have a low Mg level due to this reason aswell,the media in your reactor contains all the elements needed and should be very close to NSW when dissolved.kinda like a multivitamin ;)

This is why i had suggested waiting until your reactor was dialed in completely before additions of chemicals...dont panic,it usually takes alot longer than 2 weeks to get it finally reading what it should.

Keep in mind it is difficlult and unlikely wether you ever achieve Ca++ as NSW,while your alk sits as high as we usually like it to...3.5 and up.

But when your crunching #`s that close and you still have problems say,with sps growth,i would guess they have nothing to do with your reactor.

Hth,

[ 17 September 2002, 21:28: Message edited by: Superfudge ]

[StirCrazy]

hmmm ok, so it looks like I should have my reacctor Alk more than double what I want my tank alk.. so this makes sence it will desolve more stuff.. I also realize that I will get Mg from my media also, and I suspected that after everything is ballanced that it will take care of that also ( Now I know that, Thanks Doug)

and this is why I said in the begining that I was going to use the suplament to bring it up to whare it should be then i will probably never need it again. (mabe I didn't do a good job of stating this) i was thinking of using the reactor in over drive to do it but my thinking there was that might depress my PH more than I like with the increased co2.

so I was thinking along the lines that if I can get it up to 1200 ppm then the way my reactor is set right now should be able to handle it..

my low Ca out put from my reactor, I am thinking it is because of the low ca level in the tank water.. my idea is (tel me if this makes sence cuz if it doesen't then I have to look at it again hehe ) that in the amountof time the water is in the reactor for my feed rate and such it can only adsorb so much Ca, so if I have 200ppm water entering I have 330 ppm water exiting, so I am picking up 130 ppm in the reactor. my reasons for this line of though is that when my tank water was 180 ppm my reactor out put was 290. so going along that lines if I can get my Ca level in to the reactor at 380, then it should be 510 out with the same bubble rate. now this could be out to lunch also but so far it is working that way.. I also relize that I could increase my co2 and get more of a spread but when I started getting to the levels I need tomaintain I would have to reduce the co2 again. so sence I am putting in more Ca than I am consuming right now I thought I was set whare I wanted to be.. (this is based on my slow increase of Ca in the tank.)

anyways I am enjoying the sugestions and don't think I ignor them I am thinking them over and trying to rationalize them and when I make a post like this it is to show my thinking so others can show me whare I am thinking wrong or that maby I have a point..

Steve