Data: Wrong; Sustainability: Don't care; Robert Wintner: Aquarium trade should stop!

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by gobytron

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

I have a little more faith in our planet and the ability of life to adapt. Species evolve and some go extinct. And sometimes there is a major reset which can be caused by an asteroid, or maybe a nuclear winter in the future.... All it would take is a pandemic to reduce our impact.... We are just a mere microscopic blip in the history of this planet.

When I was a kid, I was told that most of the world's O2 was produced (and CO2 was absorbed) in the Amazon, and if we don't stop deforestation there, the planet will die. Well, they have not stopped, and we're still here, plus I don't hear much about that anymore. More recently, I watched a show on Oasis that claimed that some forest in Siberia was producing most of the world's O2. And of course, the marine biologists would like us to believe that the ocean's kelp and other algae produce most of our O2. I honestly don't know what to believe now.

And what happened to the ozone scare. I thought the holes were opening up in the south and north, and we are all going to be fried with UV and get cancer. Don't hear much about that anymore either.

Now it's all about global warning, and how we have to stop burning carbon. I wonder what we will be talking about 20 years from now. I am sure there will be something else.

Having said all that, I do believe we need to continue to our efforts with reducing pollution on land and water, and be better at managing and conserving our resources. I think technology will help us with that, including solar power, carbon storage, and more efficient manufacturing.

On that front, I think we are already winning in some parts of the world, including the US and Canada. One example is LA. It is still bad there, but not as bad as it was 40 years ago. China needs to clean up its air, but I think they know that, and are working at it. So, I don't think the outlook is all bad.

I do wish the media (and Hollywood) would be a little less dramatic, and a little more honest with their reporting and documentaries. Sometimes, I think they make things worse, despite their apparently good intent, which misleads the public and prompts the politicians to make bad decisions.

But whatever happens, I think we all owe it to ourselves and everyone else to live a happy life. I think reefing (and other hobbies) are an important part of that. And the more we can share and help others, the better. Sure beats fighting/killing each other, doing drugs, or just watching TV.

[mrhasan]

Life always finds a way: evolution, extinction and new life forms are just some ways.

This planet is much more stronger than we are.

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

I have a little more faith in our planet and the ability of life to adapt. Species evolve and some go extinct. And sometimes there is a major reset which can be caused by an asteroid, or maybe a nuclear winter in the future.... All it would take is a pandemic to reduce our impact.... We are just a mere microscopic blip in the history of this planet.

When I was a kid, I was told that most of the world's O2 was produced (and CO2 was absorbed) in the Amazon, and if we don't stop deforestation there, the planet will die. Well, they have not stopped, and we're still here, plus I don't hear much about that anymore. More recently, I watched a show on Oasis that claimed that some forest in Siberia was producing most of the world's O2. And of course, the marine biologists would like us to believe that the ocean's kelp and other algae produce most of our O2. I honestly don't know what to believe now.

And what happened to the ozone scare. I thought the holes were opening up in the south and north, and we are all going to be fried with UV and get cancer. Don't hear much about that anymore either.

Now it's all about global warning, and how we have to stop burning carbon. I wonder what we will be talking about 20 years from now. I am sure there will be something else.

Having said all that, I do believe we need to continue to our efforts with reducing pollution on land and water, and be better at managing and conserving our resources. I think technology will help us with that, including solar power, carbon storage, and more efficient manufacturing.

On that front, I think we are already winning in some parts of the world, including the US and Canada. One example is LA. It is still bad there, but not as bad as it was 40 years ago. China needs to clean up its air, but I think they know that, and are working at it. So, I don't think the outlook is all bad.

I do wish the media (and Hollywood) would be a little less dramatic, and a little more honest with their reporting and documentaries. Sometimes, I think they make things worse, despite their apparently good intent, which misleads the public and prompts the politicians to make bad decisions.

But whatever happens, I think we all owe it to ourselves and everyone else to live a happy life. I think reefing (and other hobbies) are an important part of that. And the more we can share and help others, the better. Sure beats fighting/killing each other, doing drugs, or just watching TV.

Right on sir I am guessing one of the things that people will be fighting for is to stop wearing clothes so that the people in 3rd world country will get relieved from their "low-wage" paid jobs (without thinking something is better than nothing and that low wage might be keeping them and their families starving from death). Maybe they will put a ban on owning too many apparels? World is not dying, its us! And its the nature of human to blame it on something else and in this case: mother earth.

I am pretty sure dinosaurs were concerned about pooping here and there and releasing methane into the air (I am presuming they had big poop) and maybe the dino environmentalists put a ban on pooping and hence eating and maybe that's why they extinct (hey I just made up an evolutionary theory ). Earth is not weak

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

I am pretty sure dinosaurs were concerned about pooping here and there and releasing methane into the air (I am presuming they had big poop) and maybe the dino environmentalists put a ban on pooping and hence eating and maybe that's why they extinct (hey I just made up an evolutionary theory ). Earth is not weak

Ha, ha, yeah, I think your theory is just as good as many others that are being peddled in the name of science these days...

[TimT]

Hi Wayne,

Sorry for the late reply but I have been sick.

Originally Posted by naesco

I am not in the industry so my opinion is not biased.

My opinion is biased because I'm in the industry but Eric's is not? Isn't Eric in the same industry I am? Shouldn't he be biased too?

If you were in the industry you might know why Eric said "Let's take Hawaiian cleaner wrasse for example. We might have sold 1 all year long if that. I speak to the collectors and make sure they know not to collect them!"

Here is a little background info:
Eric's clientele are very price motivated. It is much easier for them to sell an Indo Pacific Cleaner wrasse for $10 than a Hawaiian cleaner wrasse for $60. Like Eric said "economics".

I don't think SDC or ERI can feed their fish simply due to logistics. There are other reasons like economics and that when the fish are only there for a week or less they will soon get fed at the stores tanks.

So when you take the cleaner wrasse from Indo/Philippines/Vietnam and they are not fed by the collector, exporter or wholesaler how long do you think the busy little fish has before it starves to death. Then when they get to the stores(not all stores do this) they are thrown a little rancid flake food, it's no wonder they die. This is one of the reasons for high mortality, starve a fish for too long and they won't start to eat again, especially if you offer them poor quality food they have never seen before.

Take a Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse for example. Eric gets it and it has not been fed for a week or so. He doesn't feed it so it sits in the system week after week as no one wants to pay the price for it when the Indo Pacific ones are so cheap. Consequently poor little Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse starves to death. Eric is a good business man so economics quickly take over and no more Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasses are ordered or collected.

Originally Posted by naesco

Tim you know Eric one of the largest marine fish importers in the USA.

Eric and I ordered from some of the same suppliers but that's about where the similarity ends. I fed my fish twice a day with the most nutritious marine based frozen food on the planet. It cost me a lot for the food and the labour to have employees feeding and then vacuuming the systems on a regular basis. That is why my fish had the reputation of quality that they did. Fish respond well when fed and the mortality rates of the "difficult fish" are considerably reduced. Regular species(sleeper goby's and damsels) even began to spawn in the holding system.

Originally Posted by naesco

Attached is an article in wetwebmedia.com by Robert Fenner and accomplished expert in fish and recognized as such.

Bob Fenner is someone that I respect greatly for his tireless work to educate hobbyists. I frequently recommend new hobbyists use his site for reference. He is however basing his opinions on what he sees happening in the US market.

Originally Posted by naesco

Reefers need to make their own opinion based on facts/

Yes, I agree totally. I am trying to give you some new facts based on my experience as a wholesaler but you seem to be biased against me for some reason?? Wayne, we are on the same side. That being of conservation and sustainable limits/use. That is one reason why I quit importing fish from Indonesia, Philippines and Vietnam. It is not all about money.


This hobby has come along way since I started in the mid 70's. Impossible to keep species are now breeding in captivity. Given time and better industry practices perhaps the difficult species of today will be able to survive in captivity for the long term.


On to the topic of Non Renewable resources. I find it interesting that copper used to be in that category. Since technology has moved along copper pipes have been replaced by plastic. There is no longer the concern of running out of copper. Then there is oil. I am hearing reports of oil fields that are supposed to run dry but they keep producing. There is apparently some mechanism whereby new oil is being created. One must ask... is there really such a thing as a non renewable resource?


How about "Extinct Species". Here is an interesting story.

"The first amphibian to have been officially declared extinct by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) has been rediscovered in the north of Israel after some 60 years and turns out to be a unique “living fossil,” without close relatives among other living frogs, according to researchers at Hebrew University."

Full story can be read at:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...6#.Ua5NTMpYqkI

Lunch break is over so back to work!!!

Cheers,
Tim

[saltcreep]

Originally Posted by TimT

I don't think SDC or ERI can feed their fish simply due to logistics. There are other reasons like economics and that when the fish are only there for a week or less they will soon get fed at the stores tanks....

...Eric and I ordered from some of the same suppliers but that's about where the similarity ends. I fed my fish twice a day with the most nutritious marine based frozen food on the planet. It cost me a lot for the food and the labour to have employees feeding and then vacuuming the systems on a regular basis. That is why my fish had the reputation of quality that they did. Fish respond well when fed and the mortality rates of the "difficult fish" are considerably reduced.

Actually, Tim, SDC does feed their fish and have full time staff that take care of this.

One must be careful of using the "I don't think" phrase and then making statements as if they are based on fact when it is just your speculation. Just sayin'.

[RumRunner]

http://www.seashepherd.org/commentar...s-worldwide-72

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by RumRunner

http://www.seashepherd.org/commentar...s-worldwide-72

Nothing is moral in this world. Our existence in the first place is not moral; we are putting in too much weight on the planet itself!

[RumRunner]

Agreed

[TimT]

Hi Kyle,

I fully expected you to post on this.

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Actually, Tim, SDC does feed their fish and have full time staff that take care of this.

I expected this answer as well since you transship their fish to some of the stores which are on this board. Some of those stores are also my customers and in the past I have heard complaints of thin fish and excessive mortalities.

When I was at SDC I did not observe anyone feeding the fish. I did see staff cleaning and vacuuming the tanks but I was only there for a few hours. That is why I said that I didn't think they could logistically feed fish(and pack at the same time). I assume they do a fair amount of packing but I have never been there and watched their operation for a full day.

I have asked a friend of mine who worked at some of the largest LA wholesalers. They will provide a non partisan answer. If it turns out I am wrong then that is great for the fish. Either way I will post their response.

Cheers,
Tim