cyano battle lol

[asylumdown]

And I just want to put it out there that I've done some more research in to the specific strains that are likely in a bacterial dosing product like MB7. If they are using one of the strains of prokaryotic heterotrophs that can form endospores, then I can see it being possible for the product to actually have viable culture inside it long term. So while I'm still skeptical as to whether or not adding a tincture of say 100,000 bacterial spores to an aquarium already populated with several trillion bacterial cells does much, I will concede that it is in fact possible, if the right strains are chosen and they are prepared in an appropriate manner and solution, for viable bacteria to still be present buy the time you buy it.

The same can not be said for bacterial supplements designed to speed up the cycle, as the nitrifying autotrophs responsible for that cannot form endospores and go in to suspended animation.

It would be all so much easier to look in to if any of these companies would publish which bacteria they're using, but I'm guessing it's more likely that I will win the lottery tonight.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by michika

"Cheap"? Right...cheap is relative don't forget.

Per the Brightwell page for dosing instructions; high nutrient is 5mL/25g for the first two weeks, then you switch to the low nutrient dosing levels which is 5mL/50g. Currently my tank has a volume of 600g, soon to be about 750g. Using the 600g number on a large tank like mine I'd be dosing in EXCESS of 120mL/day at the initial dosing recommendation and then about 60mL/day. A 2L bottle is $40.10 at JL (excluding shipping and taxes). A 2L bottle will last me 16.66 days at the high nutrient dosing amount. The lower dosing would last a little more then a month; 36.36 days. Therefor I could expect to have a fixed monthly cost of $40 + shipping & taxes. That isn't particularly economic. Add in the fix costs of running your tank (utilities, food, salt, etc.) and you can be easily paying out a large monthly cost for your hobby enjoyment.

To conclude when we talk about "cheap" we need to recognize that its a relevant term in comparision to systems, economics (prices at LFSs, accessiblity, etc.), and feasibility. What is realistic for someone isn't realistic for another.

Also remember a lot of these threads are people advising others of their experiences. Advice is often just a regurgitation of things that have worked for others, but isn't necessarily based on hard facts or provable science. Just because something worked for you is not a guarantee that it will work for someone else.

Additionally asylumdown has provided us all some great academic based responses in regards to cyano. I think it really does put much of the discussion into black and white terms when it comes to why some tanks may have cyano and others don't. I suspect that those points are the ones most often missed when we talk amongst ourselves in the reefing community about solving this issue when it appears.

Disclaimer: I have cyano, I've had it since I missed ONE water change during the Southern Alberta floods. I've tried Coral Snow, bacterial dosing (Zeobak)increasing my water changes, amending the flow patterns in my tank, and doing absolutely nothing. And you know what nothing has worked. I bought many products on the recommendations of others because it also worked for them. So there you go, why I felt the need to chime in.

/devil's advocate moment.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I use about 20 ml a week of MB7 in my 230g system (may be less than what Brightwell recommends). And I bought my last 2L bottle from J&L at their boxing day sale (15 0r 20% discount). I just checked, and still have about 1/2 left (keep it in the fridge). I started this bottle last Feb. So that means it costs me about $20 a year. For me, that is indeed cheap to stay cyano free, and all the other benefits that it provides.

And sorry for seeming to put down academic discussions. I find them very interesting too, and often learn something. But I also wanted to give my real experience with cyano problems I had in the past and how I conquered them. As I said, I have not had a single outbreak since I started using MB7. And a few times (not in the last year or more) when it tried to start up again, I just dosed MB7 heavily for a couple weeks, and it quickly disappeared. Interestingly that happened during a summer when I was away a lot and not able to dose MB7 regularly. While that may not be a scientific test, it was enough to convince me that it worked.

I am sure there may be other ways to lick cyano, but that is what worked for me.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

And I just want to put it out there that I've done some more research in to the specific strains that are likely in a bacterial dosing product like MB7. If they are using one of the strains of prokaryotic heterotrophs that can form endospores, then I can see it being possible for the product to actually have viable culture inside it long term. So while I'm still skeptical as to whether or not adding a tincture of say 100,000 bacterial spores to an aquarium already populated with several trillion bacterial cells does much, I will concede that it is in fact possible, if the right strains are chosen and they are prepared in an appropriate manner and solution, for viable bacteria to still be present buy the time you buy it.

The same can not be said for bacterial supplements designed to speed up the cycle, as the nitrifying autotrophs responsible for that cannot form endospores and go in to suspended animation.

It would be all so much easier to look in to if any of these companies would publish which bacteria they're using, but I'm guessing it's more likely that I will win the lottery tonight.

Thanks for your continued research efforts into the subject. It must be a fair bit of work and it is appreciated.

I am just reporting on my experience, and don't have any scientific back-up for what worked for me. But I did see some cause and effect, which is what convinced me.

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by ponokareefer

I started my first ever battle with Cyano this summer after introducing something from someone's tank that had it in it. I thought the only sure way to get rid of it was total tank darkness for an extended period, which I wasn't willing to do. Great information here, thank you everyone. I look forward to seeing how this works for you wreck.

Anyone know where you can get Chemiclean and Chemi-Pure Elite in central Alberta or Edmonton?

Aquarium Illusions in Edmonton usually has these items on the shelf.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Thanks for your continued research efforts into the subject. It must be a fair bit of work and it is appreciated.

I am just reporting on my experience, and don't have any scientific back-up for what worked for me. But I did see some cause and effect, which is what convinced me.

haha, I can't tell if I'm wasting time horribly when I should be concentrating on my actual research in grassland ecology, or being wise in taking advantage of unrestricted access to pretty much every academic article ever written while I'm still a registered student.

for what it's worth I'm getting sick of cyano myself. I'm trying to track down some Dr. Tim's Waste Away here in Canada, so while I might publicly espouse kermudgeony skepticism, it's a relatively low risk thing to try so long as you aren't expecting miracles. Unlike a lot of the things that get sold to people in the aquarium trade (or the 'alternative' health industry, fitness industry, etc. etc.), there is a theoretically plausible basis for hypothesizing that bacterial supplementation might actually have some of the claimed effects. My skepticism stems from the fact that

a) there's no "International Aquarium Claim Certification Board". These manufacturers can claim whatever they want, but it's not like they're held to any sort of standards or quality control. I'd be far less skeptical if even one of these manufacturers would publish the species they're using, and independently confirmed cell counts you could expect to be in each bottle the moment it leaves the production line.

b) Culturing, harvesting, purifying, and packaging a bacterial culture is not a simple process, and could conceivably range in sophistication from rotting some shrimp in a glass, shaking it up really hard, then straining the fluid in to a bottle, to a highly sophisticated industrial lab or anything in between. Process matters, and none of these companies publish how they go about producing their products

c) Lots can happen along the chain of custody, and while some put expiry dates on the bottles, I've not seen any that put 'packaged on' dates on the bottles to give you a sense of how long what you bought has been out in the world before it got to you.

and d) none of this has ever been studied in any controlled sort of way (though companies often claim that they've done 'rigorous' testing and we are supposed to just believe them), so while it's theoretically possible that it works, the microbial communities in tanks are likely as complicated and variable as the microbial communities in different people's intestines. When a company claims that their product 'maintains proper microbial balance' or some other biologically meaningless marketing language like that, they are implying that they have far more knowledge about marine microbiology than is is reflected in the scientific literature, both in terms of what the species they are supposedly selling actually do, and in terms of how those species interact with the microbes present in your tank. Yes there is some high level scientific theory to justify exploring the possibility, but considering that a recent study exploring the microbes present in human bellybuttons came up with dozens of microbial species that were as yet unknown to science (an area you'd think we'd be much more familiar with than the ocean or the unique circumstance of a reef tank), the chances are good that there are dozens to hundreds of species of microbe in your tank that are also as yet unknown to science. A company claiming that they know how a tincture of a few known species will react in an environment as complex, stochastic, and specific as any one tank vastly over-estimates the current state of human knowledge.

points a through d do not necessarily mean they don't do what they say they do, or don't have value, but they're good reasons to remain skeptical. As I said, if it works for you, keep doing it, and I'm about to try my own little anecdotal experiment as well because I don't really see a reason not to. Hopefully it works and my cyano vanishes completely. But I know there's too many variables, both inside my tank and in the wide world surrounding that product's production for me to either say it was the product that did it, or expect similar results in the future.

Bah. I have no idea what I'm talking about. What was this thread about again?

[wreck]

Well its been 48 hours and whamo that chemiclean kicked the s@#t out of the cyano. Now for a water change. Will keep posting back and will add photos

[brotherd]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

haha, I can't tell if I'm wasting time horribly when I should be concentrating on my actual research in grassland ecology, or being wise in taking advantage of unrestricted access to pretty much every academic article ever written while I'm still a registered student.

for what it's worth I'm getting sick of cyano myself. I'm trying to track down some Dr. Tim's Waste Away here in Canada, so while I might publicly espouse kermudgeony skepticism, it's a relatively low risk thing to try so long as you aren't expecting miracles. Unlike a lot of the things that get sold to people in the aquarium trade (or the 'alternative' health industry, fitness industry, etc. etc.), there is a theoretically plausible basis for hypothesizing that bacterial supplementation might actually have some of the claimed effects. My skepticism stems from the fact that

a) there's no "International Aquarium Claim Certification Board". These manufacturers can claim whatever they want, but it's not like they're held to any sort of standards or quality control. I'd be far less skeptical if even one of these manufacturers would publish the species they're using, and independently confirmed cell counts you could expect to be in each bottle the moment it leaves the production line.

b) Culturing, harvesting, purifying, and packaging a bacterial culture is not a simple process, and could conceivably range in sophistication from rotting some shrimp in a glass, shaking it up really hard, then straining the fluid in to a bottle, to a highly sophisticated industrial lab or anything in between. Process matters, and none of these companies publish how they go about producing their products

c) Lots can happen along the chain of custody, and while some put expiry dates on the bottles, I've not seen any that put 'packaged on' dates on the bottles to give you a sense of how long what you bought has been out in the world before it got to you.

and d) none of this has ever been studied in any controlled sort of way (though companies often claim that they've done 'rigorous' testing and we are supposed to just believe them), so while it's theoretically possible that it works, the microbial communities in tanks are likely as complicated and variable as the microbial communities in different people's intestines. When a company claims that their product 'maintains proper microbial balance' or some other biologically meaningless marketing language like that, they are implying that they have far more knowledge about marine microbiology than is is reflected in the scientific literature, both in terms of what the species they are supposedly selling actually do, and in terms of how those species interact with the microbes present in your tank. Yes there is some high level scientific theory to justify exploring the possibility, but considering that a recent study exploring the microbes present in human bellybuttons came up with dozens of microbial species that were as yet unknown to science (an area you'd think we'd be much more familiar with than the ocean or the unique circumstance of a reef tank), the chances are good that there are dozens to hundreds of species of microbe in your tank that are also as yet unknown to science. A company claiming that they know how a tincture of a few known species will react in an environment as complex, stochastic, and specific as any one tank vastly over-estimates the current state of human knowledge.

points a through d do not necessarily mean they don't do what they say they do, or don't have value, but they're good reasons to remain skeptical. As I said, if it works for you, keep doing it, and I'm about to try my own little anecdotal experiment as well because I don't really see a reason not to. Hopefully it works and my cyano vanishes completely. But I know there's too many variables, both inside my tank and in the wide world surrounding that product's production for me to either say it was the product that did it, or expect similar results in the future.

Bah. I have no idea what I'm talking about. What was this thread about again?

Love it! Brilliant!

[darkreef]

I have been fighting red slime for six months now, I've done everything.

25% water changes every four days
Bought a new skimmer rated twice my tank
Bought a phonsban reactor
Added 3 more power heads
Treated the tank (worked for a bit) then killed all my pods and death to my mandarin.

It has slowed down growth but still comes back

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by wreck

Well its been 48 hours and whamo that chemiclean kicked the s@#t out of the cyano. Now for a water change. Will keep posting back and will add photos

That's great. Yes, Chemiclean definitely works. Now your challenge will be to keep it from coming back. Good luck.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by michika

"Cheap"? Right...cheap is relative don't forget.

Per the Brightwell page for dosing instructions; high nutrient is 5mL/25g for the first two weeks, then you switch to the low nutrient dosing levels which is 5mL/50g. Currently my tank has a volume of 600g, soon to be about 750g. Using the 600g number on a large tank like mine I'd be dosing in EXCESS of 120mL/day at the initial dosing recommendation and then about 60mL/day. A 2L bottle is $40.10 at JL (excluding shipping and taxes). A 2L bottle will last me 16.66 days at the high nutrient dosing amount. The lower dosing would last a little more then a month; 36.36 days. Therefor I could expect to have a fixed monthly cost of $40 + shipping & taxes. That isn't particularly economic. Add in the fix costs of running your tank (utilities, food, salt, etc.) and you can be easily paying out a large monthly cost for your hobby enjoyment.

Catherine, was just wondering further how my costs with a 230g system are only $20/year, while you were looking at $40/ mo with a 600g system. The Brightwell instructions state no more than 5 ml/50g/week (not per day) for a stable, low nutrient system. So, if I do the math on your tank, the costs should be less than $80 for a full year.

And remember these are seed bacteria, so Brightwell says this dosage can be decreased by a further 50% over time to maintain a stable, low nutrient system. I think this means that you need to keep your nitrates and phosphates low. But even with your very large 600g system, your costs could be less than $40 per year. So again, I do consider that cheap, considering all the benefits (not just cyano prevention) that MB7 provides.