TM balling webinar synopsis

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by reeferfulton

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

Hiya

sorry I did not answer all your excellent parts. they all are very valid.

You are completely right the people doing their own 2 part if they add part C then yes you are balancing the equation and as such doing it right.

You are also 100% correct in the purity factor, TM is as pure as you could get, if this is important to you that you know based on the companies ethics that you are getting the best possible salts then TM offer you the kit in an easy to buy solution.

If purity is not a concern to you then go ahead use any 2 part you like just add the part C to the equation.

However when deciding to save a few dollars on cheap off the shelf salts, remember how much you have spent in live stock over a year, high end equipment to keep that live stock going, do you really want to risk that investment on cheap salts? You maybe saving $50 a year but risking $5000 of investment in stock.

The salts are one of the life bloods to your system, you are happy to spend $$$ on a coral so why not on a product to keep that coral healthy?

Ultimately only you can decide what you feel you should risk and spend your money on, but if you go cheap at least add Part C which for 1kg is only going to cost you around $20 and last months.

[Aqua-Digital]

I will also add, if you are doing a different 3 part right now, either remove the Mg and replace with part C (which container MG in proportion).

This is not all about TM balling being the ONLY way, its about doing Hans-werner ballings method, how you skin that cat is up to you, what other salts you use is up to you, but the important factor to all this IS

PART C

TM offer an off the shelf system with all elements, or they offer an off the shelf separated parts, you choose what you want from there.

But if you are going to dose minerals this way, lets do it right - Balanced

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

I will also add, if you are doing a different 3 part right now, either remove the Mg and replace with part C or reduce your Mg dosing significantly and add Part C to you equation in a different container, however you will likely (if your system is balanced correctly) no longer require the Mg mix.

This is not all about TM balling being the ONLY way, its about doing Hans-werner ballings method, how you skin that cat is up to you, what other salts you use is up to you, but the important factor to all this IS

PART C

TM offer an off the shelf system with all elements, or they offer an off the shelf separated parts, you choose what you want from there.

But if you are going to dose minerals this way, lets do it right - Balanced

That is something that I said in another thread that got closed Getting your own phamacetical grade CaCl and NaHCO3 and adding part 3 should be equal to complete balling But you didn't say anything on that

[Aqua-Digital]

I did not really want to have these threads open, DIY 2 part is a heated subject, a few people that follow it do tend to get upset when you point out their cheap or out of balance way more to the point is actually not correct and potentially damaging, as such we decided to go down a more info type of post, where people could then contact us directly should they want further info, just to stop the crazy off the wall debates that we often see.

However I thought I would try just keeping this one open see how it went, so far 90% ok Lots of good questions and answers.

It seems I missed your question or reply which I am sorry about, but yes you are 100% right as above stated, if you can find your own pure salt, then yer for sure go for it, but not everyone wants to store such large quantities you have to buy from the producers and there is a risk of moisture getting to it, as it will soak up humidity in the air, large quantities have to be used quickly just as with small amounts.

So if this is the way you wish to go I will happily supply all day Part C to everyone that wants to do Balling right. Part C is by far not expensive, goes a long way and you know then you are doing things correctly.

[Aqua-Digital]

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

Well instead of using randy's receipe, if someone just create the mixes according to the doc you posted, they should be getting something closer to what TM's balling is; maybe not 100% accurate but hey, some sacrifices have to be made I wouldn't mind trying part C since it kind of makes sense now I would consider it more as "adding traces with one powder" instead of all the ionic balances. Fancy words make things look crazy

[Madreefer]

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.

[BlueTang<3]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.

I jumped in this bandwagon bill calcium reactor leaked one too many times. As soon as my salts come in ill post some pics of the new dosing setup.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

Well perhaps you could provide a list of exactly what trace elements are in part C? In one post you state that of course it doesn't have ALL the trace elements from NSW but then in this quote you again imply that the TM Part C does have everything that makes up NSW but others don't.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be skeptical but simply trying to achieve clarity here. That big list of all the trace elements in NSW is highly unlikely to all be found in any supplement. TM's or another brand's. It's just not possible, likely, or practical. So TM Part C will have the "essential" trace elements just as several other products likely do.

What I am trying to understand is what makes TM's Balling Part C different and/or superior to trace element products from say KZ or Brightwell or Kent or Thrive etc?

As for the purity of DIY CA or alk etc, let's not get ridiculous. Pretty much any decent DIY source or mix will be more than pure enough for aquarium use. Arm and Hammer baking soda is pure enough. Epsom Salts are pure enough for Mg. Many have used those for years without negative consequences. Anything good enough for human use or consumption is good enough. Even several sidewalk de-icers are more than pure enough sources of CaCl for our uses. And the savings can be quite significant as most of the Ca and Alk supplements I have seen are fairly dilute and expensive in comparison to the amount of say CaCl you can get for DIY supplements or in comparison to using Arm and Hammer baking soda etc. Epsom salts are cheap too for dosing Mg.

Again, I'm not saying that the product isn't good. I may consider using Part C with DIY CaCl and Baking Soda. But I might also, for example, consider KZ's Sea Water Complex All in One which appears to be quite similar.

[Aqua-Digital]

Hi Ron

Yes Part C has everything you will find in a properly balanced sea salt mix other than NACL. I will see if TM will release the full list, they may not due to obvious commercial reasons.

If other brands of NACL free sea salt mix (part C) have all the same trace elements then yes for sure, as I said there is no exclusive over this but as yet I have not found or been shown one that does.

What makes it superior in my view is that TM are taking the guess work out for you, it is also cheaper and you do not have to do any multi dosing of various elements to try and meet what is provided to you in a simple powder form from TM. Yes there are many brands that offer extra elements to your tank, but as pointed out on the webinar, typically they will offer around 30 of the essential elements, or around that number. So again back to the benefit of TM, it is an off the shelf easy to use all in one product.

I am not going to get into the argument of the risks of cheap salt, but throwing drive way mix into your system I am sorry that is one step over the edge, but I covered the whys and where for's in regards to using a known pure source, as I said then you spend thousands of dollars on corals etc on your tank I am at a loss why someone would risk that no matter how small they feel the risk is on salts you cant prove as pure. The salt mix is the life blood of the tank, surely a little extra spent to use a known qualified mix worth the expense?

I regards to just using a balanced sea salt mix, this was covered in the very first opening synopsis. If you do no 3 part or 2 part dosing at all, in between water changes you will get troughs in the amount of elements remaining in the system, so you will no doubt argue that you will then do for example (lets go large) a 25% water change weekly?

When you remove 25% of the water you are replacing it with only 25% of the depleted elements.

Worse from this IS doing a non balanced 2 or 3 part system and relying on a water change, again you are only removing the % of water change and that % of imbalance, its simple maths, there is no argument to that one.

With a proper balanced balling system you are keeping the elements and stability where it should be in between those water changes, eliminating any depletion.