Asylumdown's 275 Tank build

[lastlight]

Really sad news about your fish bro. You're definitely due some good news for a change hope things only get better from here.

[asylumdown]

Thanks friends!

So I ended up having to cancel my trip to Hawaii because of school, which sucks on a whole different level, but I consoled myself by going on a fish binge today. My QT tank is completely cycled at this point, so it was either keep dosing ammonium chloride, or by something with a metabolism to do it for me!

Most expensive purchase:
Golden rhomboidal wrasse

Most sentimental purchase
Harlequin tusk fish. The one I lost was easily my favourite fish.

Everyone was eating after a couple hours in the QT tank today, so tomorrow I'm going to start ramping up cupramine levels for a prophylactic treatment. If I do it right, I should have fish in my tank again in 3 weeks.

On another note, I took my skimmer apart tonight for it's first ever major cleaning. When I put it back together I realized that for hte past 7 months the adapter that holds the pump to the skimmer body has been loose. I was complaining about the noise it makes way back in the beginning, and did need to get a part of the pump replaced, but now after a simple tightening the skimmer is absolutely silent. Now once I get the bearing replacement kit for my Reeflo Dart return pump, my tank should be near silent.

[asylumdown]

So I'm officially done using copper. For good. Of the 7 fish I bought to replace the guys who died, two survived the prophylactic cupramine treatment. I knew some or all had ich (flashing, came from tanks with visible ich present), so there was no way I wasn't going to treat them, but good lord.

To add insult to injury, I have now done enough research on Cryptocarion irritans to quote it's life-cycle stages in my sleep, and I'm no longer convinced that the recommended course of cupramine (or any copper medication) is sufficient to eradicate ich from a system. It will definitely clear it from the fish, but since you're 'supposed' to leave the fish in the quarantine tank for a couple of weeks after completing the copper treatment, you run a very real risk of the fish becoming re-infected in the QT from tomonts that lodged in places you couldn't clean (the bio-media of your filter, for example) that encysted before copper reached therapeutic levels. Crypt tomonts can easily stay encysted for 5+ weeks, and no one would recommend treating a fish that long. Basically, the 14 day recommended course of treatment on the cupramine bottle is woefully insufficient to clear the parasite based on well established published literature. I think they recommend 14 days because anything longer is dangerous to the fish.

The only treatment method that I've seen that makes any sense from a 'total eradication' perspective is the tank transfer method, which takes the wild card tomonts out of the picture completely. As a result, I've completely re-done my QT system to accommodate for this method:

Gone is the 40 gallon breeder with external canister filter, and in it's place is two 15 gallon tanks, each with their own light, heater, and power head:


I transferred my two survivors from the 40 gallon (which still had therapeutic levels of copper, I let it run for my two survivors an extra week) to one of the 15s, which was sterile and, taking care to transfer as little water as possible.


I then bleach bombed everything that had been in water in the 40 (heater, powerhead, canister filter, PVC lengths) and cleaned and dried everything. I was thinking I would then re-set up the canister filter and cycle it in a 5 gallon bucket in the garage so that I could add it back to one of the 15s after the final tank transfer was complete for a future batch of fish, but now I'm thinking that filter might be overkill for a 15 gallon tank:


Instead, I might cycle the media from an aquaclear 20 in a bucket and just put that on one of the 15s after the last transfer is complete.

For the 2 fish that I do have, I've basically just done the first transfer of the transfer process, but since they spent three weeks in therapeutic levels of copper, and were in that water right up to the moment they were transferred to this new tank, I'm not sure if I need to do the full transfer protocol. There's no tomonts in this new 15 gallon to re-infect them now that the copper levels are zero, so assuming there's no signs of re-infection by thursday, I might just put them back in the display. I bought a 2 litre of prime to deal with the ammonia that's going to result from keeping fish in filterless tanks.

So far, I can say that the biggest fear I had about using this method was the stress to the fish, but while the transfer itself was clearly unpleasant for them, within 3 minutes of being in the new water they were acting totally normally, and ate an hour later, so it's the trade-off of the acute, but highly temporary stress of catching them every three days, vs the stress of continuously subjecting them to poison for weeks and then them being re-infected. I think the acute but temporary stress is better.

[Spyd]

Next time you buy some fish, maybe try Hyposalinity instead of a copper based medication. I have had excellent results in clearing up any ich from purchased livestock and it is 100% medication free.

[daplatapus]

I tried hypo and copper and I lost fish both times. Copper - was my own fault. Didn't know you can't use Amquel at the same time.
Hypo - for some reason I could just not keep the pH up.
I've been doing the tank transfer for over a year, going on 12 fish, haven't lost one yet and so far has been 100% effective.
I understand not everyone has the room for it, but it sure beats everything else I've tried. For actually transferring fish, I syphon out everything but 3" or 4" of water and gently use my hand to catch them. This can't be done safely with every type of fish, but everything I have has done great with it. They don't seem to mind, no thrashing around like you see in a net. It's my first choice for sure for ich treatment or QT.

[asylumdown]

I tried hypo, it didn't work for me. To give the method it's fair due, my protocol wasn't exactly perfect, but I don't put much stock in it in general. Copper makes sense to me because its a poison and has been directly shown to kill free swimming stages of the parasite in published literature, and tank transfer makes sense because its designed around breaking the known and published life cycle of the parasite, but hypo works based on an assumption that 100% of the cryptocaryon irritans population has a magic salinity tolerance threshold of 1.009 SG. That assumption is repeated as fact in forums, and seems to work for some people (and thus, some populations of crypt), but it also seems to fail for more people than the other two methods. I have no doubt that some of those failures are due to protocol problems on the aquarist's part, but I would bet money that some of those failures are because some strains of ich can tolerate any salinity a fish could survive, especially if its been acclimated slowly to that salinity with your fish. It's already been documented in brackish estuaries and tidal river systems, so there is definitely a wider range of salinity tolerances in the population than previously believed.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by daplatapus

I tried hypo and copper and I lost fish both times. Copper - was my own fault. Didn't know you can't use Amquel at the same time.
Hypo - for some reason I could just not keep the pH up.
I've been doing the tank transfer for over a year, going on 12 fish, haven't lost one yet and so far has been 100% effective.
I understand not everyone has the room for it, but it sure beats everything else I've tried. For actually transferring fish, I syphon out everything but 3" or 4" of water and gently use my hand to catch them. This can't be done safely with every type of fish, but everything I have has done great with it. They don't seem to mind, no thrashing around like you see in a net. It's my first choice for sure for ich treatment or QT.

Yah, you're experience with tank transfer seems to be the norm. Again, it's forums so take anything people say with a grain of salt, but the posts I've seen where people say it failed, it seems like they either contaminated their transfer tanks with materials from an infected system, or they were mis diagnosing the disease.

I'm using a clear Tupperware with holes drilled in the bottom to drain the water, but that's because one of my new guys is a rabbitfish. No interest in getting stuck by those spines.

[lastlight]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I'm using a clear Tupperware with holes drilled in the bottom to drain the water, but that's because one of my new guys is a rabbitfish. No interest in getting stuck by those spines.

Maybe have the water drain off and pour a jug of freshwater over top to further rinse him off. Not sure that can help any just an idea.

[gregzz4]

Brett, I don't see that doing anything as it's not contact with FW that irritates MI, but rather the interrruption of osmoregulation that kills it

Adam, I hope the tank transfer method will do the trick for you
You've been through enough already
For long-term usage, I'd suggest AM Guard over Prime

For me, I just finished a round of Hypo with a Gramma and Kole and it seems to have taken care of the strain of MI they had
I ran the QT for another 4 weeks at 1.025 and saw no more MI
Of note, I ran my Hypo Sg at 1.008 rather than 1.009
I couldn't keep my pH up past 7.8 most of the time, but all went well

[lastlight]

yeah i mostly said it because it might rinse a few off the surface of the fish but i'm guessing they're attached better than that.