Possible zoa poisoning

[Zoaelite]

Originally Posted by clown lover

I don't think it matters what one it is, they all give off a toxin when there being handled. I learned the hard way as well when handling them. Also if you are fragging out of the tank wear glasses. I use powder free throw away gloves as well.

Wrong, only certain species from the order contain the toxin.

I'm not down playing how toxic the toxin is simply my opinion that 90% of the accusations put onto the internet don't have a credible base of evidence.

During this investigation, we found that many of the zoanthids commonly sold in the home aquarium trade are non-toxic or weakly-toxic, but a highly toxic variety of Palythoa (possibly P. heliodiscus or P. toxica) is indeed available

Found here.

Every single one of the corals you added was a zoa, very unlikely they contain the toxin.

[mrhasan]

I would also like to point out something that Denny said few months ago in a similar thread...."paly" toxin. The name says it all. I am no expert but as far as I know, paly and zoas are different. Levi should correct me if I am wrong.

[Dearth]

It's one of the reasons I won't put Zoa's into my tank I love the colours of them but once bitten twice shy I never want to experience that pain ever again I read everything about the corals I have now and any future ones I plan to get especially any nasty surprises they may have but no more Zoa's for me.

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Wrong, only certain species from the order contain the toxin.

I'm not down playing how toxic the toxin is simply my opinion that 90% of the accusations put onto the internet don't have a credible base of evidence.



Found here.

Every single one of the corals you added was a zoa, very unlikely they contain the toxin.

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

[The Guy]

Originally Posted by fishytime

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

Exactly, in my statement I said " I don't THINK it matters" so I consider that they are all capable of toxin stinging, so that's why I suggest wearing the gloves and glasses, why chance it. Also some people could be more skin sensitive than others.

[daniella3d]

They don't sting and they don't bite either. They produce mucus when upset and they can spray water quite far when taken out of the water. They don't have any eyes, but they seem to be expert at spraying that water in the eyes of the person who is handling them. I have been sprayed a few times, rinsed the eyes right away and did not have any effect.

On the other end, I am getting an allergic skin reaction when I touch certains coral like frogspawn and hammer. Looks like the same type of pimples that one gets when touching poison oak and it itch like crazy.

A lot of things can cause an allergic reaction in our aquariums.

Originally Posted by clown lover

Exactly, in my statement I said " I don't THINK it matters" so I consider that they are all capable of toxin stinging, so that's why I suggest wearing the gloves and glasses. Also some people could be more skin sensitive than others as well.

[The Guy]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

They don't sting and they don't bite either. They produce mucus when upset and they can spray water quite far when taken out of the water. They don't have any eyes, but they seem to be expert at spraying that water in the eyes of the person who is handling them. I have been sprayed a few times, rinsed the eyes right away and did not have any effect.

On the other end, I am getting an allergic skin reaction when I touch certains coral like frogspawn and hammer. Looks like the same type of pimples that one gets when touching poison oak and it itch like crazy.

A lot of things can cause an allergic reaction in our aquariums.

So I guess stinging was not the right word to use, my "point" is why not be safe and wear the gloves and or the glasses when handling corals to avoid the skin discomfort. It's your skin you decide.

[jason604]

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

[toytech]

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

[asylumdown]

I'd have to agree with Levi on this. Mostly because I would never try to get in to a debate about whether you should or shouldn't take general precautions against unknown health hazards in your tank. It's usually where threads on 'I was Paly-Poisoned' end up going. I think it's an obvious common sense thing to say and do, but more importantly taking the conversation there is a red herring logical fallacy in the context of specific cases of suspected paly-poisoning.

The OP of this thread wasn't talking about a mysterious ill brought about by some unknown in a tank that may or may not have possibly been allergies. No, there was a very specific claim made about a very specific poison, with photographs of the 'accused' species provided for scrutiny, therefore I think it's completely fair and valid to address that claim specifically. Contesting that there was in fact any poisoning at all does not mean that someone is suggesting care need not be taken with their livestock and personal health, nor is it a personal attack on the person making the claim, which is how I see a lot of people interpreting such criticism, it's simply contesting that there was any poisoning in the first place based on the specifics of the claim.

While an expert does have some responsibility to not offer advice that could lead to harm, I think they also have a responsibility to challenge what are in fact very serious claims about something they care about when the evidence supporting that claim is weak or contradictory. In the absence of formal, peer reviewed hobby 'journals', forums have become the number 1 source of disseminated information on this trade. You do a search for just about anything aquarium related and the first page of google results will be links to RC, Canreef, and all the other major forum boards, so I think the 'experts' have a responsibility to make sure the best information is out there to be found. Paly-toxin has become something of a hobby boogeyman, and leaving the myriad claims of poisoning unchallenged when in fact there very likely has only been a few 'true' cases presents the impression to a newbie/lay-person that this hobby is much more dangerous than it is, gives a bad name to a whole family of animals that are for the most part model tank denizens, and, as Levi mentioned, waters down the real risks.

Stating in bold letters that something in your tank nearly killed you is an extraordinary claim, and should be backed up with extraordinary evidence. Paly-poisoning is an incredibly severe, acute, and specific condition caused by a specific agent, and it doesn't appear that any of those agents were present here. It is also toxic in such vanishingly small quanitites that it's hard to believe that there is a such thing as being just a 'little poisoned' when it comes to paly-toxin. That's like saying there's such a thing as being a 'little poisoned' by ricin, or cobra venom. It is not a bee sting. The OP also made several comments that I think suggested an alternative and far more likely cause of the reaction. I am in no way suggesting that experience wasn't 'real' or valid, just that palytoxin probably wasn't the cause.

Should everyone take general precautions when handling livestock in their tank - yes. Does that fact elevate all claims of play-toxin above the point of scrutiny and (constructive) criticism - no.