Help: New Butterfly with Ich. FML.

[ScubaSteve]

Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[Judy Waytiuk]

Genuinely sorry, ScubaSteve-- the man was just rude and insulting and I don' take well to that.
Back to the butterfly-- assuming your water parameters are all good-- and they are spot on-- the only idea I can suggest is removal to a QT for treatment there. There's clearly ich in the tank; if you want to get rid of it, that means putting all the fish in QT for at least eight weeks (six months is ideal but who wants to wait that long?) and leaving the tank fishless and therefore hostless for the ich.
Some people suggest raising the tank temp to 84 degrees to speed up the ich cycle-- that will help burn it out within the eight week time frame, if the corals don't mind. do it slowly though, both raising and lowering back the temp.
As for the med to use in the QT, I still suggest Cupramine. With the appropriate caution.
If you can rid the tank of the ich, the butterfly's stress won't be able to bring on an infestation, which exacerbates the stress. And if all the fish are in the QT and then are re-introduced to the tank at once, there will be much less territorial stress, after the initial "my spot, your spot" staking out of preferred real estate.
It's a lot of trouble to go to-- especially fish-catching! But it should work.

[daniella3d]

Your butterfly may be surviving it but it is affected make no mistake. His gills are being dammaged a little bit more each day.

You should take the fish out into a quarantine tank and treat all of them with hyposalinity and leave the main tank fishless for 8 weeks. voila, no more ick ever. No more worry about stressing the fish... If the fish get stressed, they recover from it very fast and don't get sick.

the ick will never go away on its own, it will always be present, waiting for the right opportunity to strike. It will live on the fish gill in small number and do its cycle. that's why you see it come and go. Unless you really take care of it and do the right thing, it will stay in your tank and you will always have problem. Your choice.

Don't rise the tank temperature. Marine ick cycle is NOT affected by the temperature and raising the temp will only stress your fish more from having less dissolved oxygen. the temperature myth come from the fresh water ick wich cycle is affected by the temperature but not the marine ick.

don,t use copper, it is toxic and can cause organ dammage and kill the fish on the long term. copper is the last resort treatment for velvet, not for ick unless the ick does not respond to hyposalinity.

The longest surviving ick cyst was 79 days, but most common for the longest around 60 days. So 8 weeks is fine. If you ever use cupramine, don't ever use prime or any dechlorinator that can bind with the amine is cupramine, as this will release the copper back into a toxic form.

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the reply. I am quite aware of that information and completely agree with NOT using copper meds unless completely necessary. Unfortunately, as I said in my first post, I have no means to create a hospital tank right now. I don't have the space or the resources to pull that off right now. Not all of us can play rich reefer (I wish I could).

To add to this, it was decided that we are moving in one month. So,ummmm... It kind of isn't leaving me with many options other than hoping he makes it to the move and I can set up a hospital tank for him there.

My only other option is to find someone locally that has a hospital tank to adopt him from me. I'm in need of some creative solutions...

[ScubaSteve]

Also, I should mention that I'm working almost 18 hour day until the day I love, so I'm struggling to find enough time to do something huge.

[Judy Waytiuk]

I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?

[daniella3d]

I think it would be completely pointless to use paraguard as a dip and then return the fish in a tank full of ick. It would be stressing the fish for nothing. The ick cyst are deep enough into the fish skin and it might remove a few cyst but most will stay and that will probably just stress and weaken the fish more. Unless the fish is put into a clean, ick free quarantine tank, this will not help much I am afraid.

I used paraguard for a month into a QT for my trigger popeye and it was safe enough for the biofilter but it would have killed my coral I am pretty sure. It is formaline after all.

I did not do any other treatment for ick and 4 weeks later I put my trigger into my main tank and he never developed ick. Seem Paraguard took care of any parasites that was on the fish.

Paying 20$ for a QT is nothing compared to the cost of a saltwater fish like a butterfly, mostly 40$ or 50$. I am not rich at all..in fact I just got a job after being 3 months without any income what so ever. I managed to get a QT and buy a small filter and some liverock, plus a small heater. Total cost for about 45$. yeah, it's worth it and all this stuff can be bought used for very cheap on kijiji. 9 fish cost what? enough to be worth saving no?

Originally Posted by Judy Waytiuk

I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?

[Judy Waytiuk]

I agree. Just was noting what reefwars had suggested that may have been missed, as he threw it in briefly in the middle of a long rant at me.
the only real solution to any ich problem, I am afraid, is to run a fishless tank for six months, keep all fish in quarantine and treat if symptoms appear, and qt all new fish for at least two months.
that likely won't save this butterfly...

[ScubaSteve]

Ahhh F***! Just got home after pulling two back-to-back all-nighters at work and this guy is in rough shape. He's hiding and really lethargic.

As this is my only free day in the past couple of weeks (and for the next month) I need to set-up hyposalinity for this guy today. I know it's probably a last ditch effort but I gotta do something.

[reefwars]

hey man sorry to hear about this, it may be one of those times where you need to ask yourself if you can help this little guy or if its best to pass it to someone who has the right set up and can help him for you,its def a hard decision.

even with hypo salinity if you add him back to your tank in a couple months theres still a huge chance he can get it again.


you need to ask yourself if a $100 fish is worth jeopardizing your system with disease.

as it stands now its the only fish showing the signs right?? well if thats the case i believe if you keep him in your display he will add stress to the other fish.


remember copper will help for sure but its hard on weak fish and you will still have to solve the underining issue for the ich in your tank.


a freshwater dip can help for a very temporary relief but its also stressfull....catch 22 i guess...



if you must keep it put it hyposalinity and soak everything in garlic extract ,he needs to eat and eat lots...keep the lights out or low and try not to stress him out.....lots of hiding places and keep your water clean.



good luck mate i hope it works out for you...







my personal advice is to pass it on to someone and cut your losses, dont add any fish for a while and observe your other fish