Help: New Butterfly with Ich. FML.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Judy Waytiuk

I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!(and to this day i feel FOWLR tanks miss out on a lot!)-- and even taking all the precautions possible, you can still get a bout of ich in your tank.
All it really takes is introduction of a new coral that may have a few stray trodonts on the rock it's attached to.
If you read my post, it clearly says the tang was the only fish to show any sign of ich. In two months of recurring bouts of ich, it was the only fish to show ich-- the others, not a single spot. so the tank, minus the now dead tang, appears as healthy as ever.
Needless to say, I will be watching the other fish as closely as I have been for some time.
I disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.
But it remains the gold standard for guaranteed ich cure. I would love to know the brand names of the "other meds" you mention that are reef safe and that work. If you mean Kick Ich-- HAH! might as well shred twenty dollar bills into your tank for all the good THAT stuff does (I used it once about two years ago. Useless.)
a PS re cleaner wrasses: it is now commonly accpeted among the experts that cleaner wrasses do NOT clean up ich. They clean up the damaged and dead surface skin that's been damaged by the ich. They do not actually clean off the ich spots.

so let me get this straight your saying:



i disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.



hummm so it isnt harmfull your saying but yet it has to be "very" carefully administered????? wow cause thats not strange....


all corals should also be dipped and you should never use the water your coras come in....so there are ways to ensure it doesnt hit your tank.

i have used paraguard with success with garlic soaked foods , never harmed my reef or inverts but it can be lethal to invertabrates, its def not as strong as copper but like stated it has worked for me for a hippo i was treating for a friend.




i wasnt trying to lecture but you obviously are not looking at the big picture and are stating publically that copper is the only cure when you obviously havent done squat all research...if you had you would know alot of reefers try to stay away from copper... so heres the big picture you bought a fish who is known to have ich ...they are ich magnets.... you didnt quarantine and now have the ich in your system and it is in your system i guarantee it and are now trying to say copper is the only cure???...



if you noticed the ich on your tang for 2 mths and never did anything then you only have yourself to blame a last minute effort dont help much to fish not strong enough to go through the treatment.....that 2 mths was your cure and you didnt take it...soooo ya!!








I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals.




so if you know all the stuff listed then why not do hyposalinity or have a hospital tank set up , why wait two months before treating your fish, why state that the tang is the only fish to have ich when you know its in your tank and other fish can get it....



if you want ich to stay away there are ways to not have it like i said buy only fish you have watched for health, treat all fish for parasites and even quarantine fish for hyposalinity, make sure your new fish readily eats food and is stress free from bullys and other variables like lights, yourself,sounds,electricity....etc etc etc...

dont overstock or get fish to big for your tank and try to stay away from fish who are known to carry ich like alot of tangs.





your making out like copper is a guaranteed cure and that since youve "been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!" that your exempt from new learnings....well i got bad news for ya there.....your always gonna learn or your always gonna fail

cheers and good luck with the new tang....

[Judy Waytiuk]

Now you are just being a mannerless lout-- one who apparently can't read.
I said copper "remains the gold standard" for curing ich. I did NOT say, or even suggest or hint, that copper is the only cure!
I said Kick Ich did nothing in my tank a few years ago.
I did NOT say copper was not harmful: i said nothing about its relative harmfulness or harmlessness. I said copper must be very, very carefully administered. That in itself should be sufficient indication for anyone with half a brain that I was pretty clearly inferring (you know the meaning of the word infer?) that copper is inherently dangerous.
You also suggest I did nothing for two months. Where, precisely, do you get that idea???
Stating that I have been keeping salt tanks for that long by no means suggests I have not continued to learn during the entire time I have kept tanks. That you would suggest that is both ignorant and insulting.
And guess what: I did ALL the things you list so pompously as necessary to keep a healthy tank before introducing that tang. You seem to be under the impression I just ran out, impulsively bought it and threw it in my reef along with gallons of water from various other infested tanks, and maybe a bunch of coral I didn't bother acclimating properly.
From exactly what basis do you draw that conclusion?
You seem to be under the impression you know everything there is to know about ich and reef tanks.
There are plenty of professionals and hobbyist reef experts out there who don't consider hyposalinity a first line of defense against ich. And I have done plenty of research constantly through the years, as more is learned about reefing, new products are developed, and we begin to understand more about what affects our reefs and how and why--, not "squat all."
You, sir, are an ignorant, rude jerk. Your advice will be taken in that context.

[ScubaSteve]

Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[Judy Waytiuk]

Genuinely sorry, ScubaSteve-- the man was just rude and insulting and I don' take well to that.
Back to the butterfly-- assuming your water parameters are all good-- and they are spot on-- the only idea I can suggest is removal to a QT for treatment there. There's clearly ich in the tank; if you want to get rid of it, that means putting all the fish in QT for at least eight weeks (six months is ideal but who wants to wait that long?) and leaving the tank fishless and therefore hostless for the ich.
Some people suggest raising the tank temp to 84 degrees to speed up the ich cycle-- that will help burn it out within the eight week time frame, if the corals don't mind. do it slowly though, both raising and lowering back the temp.
As for the med to use in the QT, I still suggest Cupramine. With the appropriate caution.
If you can rid the tank of the ich, the butterfly's stress won't be able to bring on an infestation, which exacerbates the stress. And if all the fish are in the QT and then are re-introduced to the tank at once, there will be much less territorial stress, after the initial "my spot, your spot" staking out of preferred real estate.
It's a lot of trouble to go to-- especially fish-catching! But it should work.

[daniella3d]

Your butterfly may be surviving it but it is affected make no mistake. His gills are being dammaged a little bit more each day.

You should take the fish out into a quarantine tank and treat all of them with hyposalinity and leave the main tank fishless for 8 weeks. voila, no more ick ever. No more worry about stressing the fish... If the fish get stressed, they recover from it very fast and don't get sick.

the ick will never go away on its own, it will always be present, waiting for the right opportunity to strike. It will live on the fish gill in small number and do its cycle. that's why you see it come and go. Unless you really take care of it and do the right thing, it will stay in your tank and you will always have problem. Your choice.

Don't rise the tank temperature. Marine ick cycle is NOT affected by the temperature and raising the temp will only stress your fish more from having less dissolved oxygen. the temperature myth come from the fresh water ick wich cycle is affected by the temperature but not the marine ick.

don,t use copper, it is toxic and can cause organ dammage and kill the fish on the long term. copper is the last resort treatment for velvet, not for ick unless the ick does not respond to hyposalinity.

The longest surviving ick cyst was 79 days, but most common for the longest around 60 days. So 8 weeks is fine. If you ever use cupramine, don't ever use prime or any dechlorinator that can bind with the amine is cupramine, as this will release the copper back into a toxic form.

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the reply. I am quite aware of that information and completely agree with NOT using copper meds unless completely necessary. Unfortunately, as I said in my first post, I have no means to create a hospital tank right now. I don't have the space or the resources to pull that off right now. Not all of us can play rich reefer (I wish I could).

To add to this, it was decided that we are moving in one month. So,ummmm... It kind of isn't leaving me with many options other than hoping he makes it to the move and I can set up a hospital tank for him there.

My only other option is to find someone locally that has a hospital tank to adopt him from me. I'm in need of some creative solutions...

[ScubaSteve]

Also, I should mention that I'm working almost 18 hour day until the day I love, so I'm struggling to find enough time to do something huge.

[Judy Waytiuk]

I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?

[daniella3d]

I think it would be completely pointless to use paraguard as a dip and then return the fish in a tank full of ick. It would be stressing the fish for nothing. The ick cyst are deep enough into the fish skin and it might remove a few cyst but most will stay and that will probably just stress and weaken the fish more. Unless the fish is put into a clean, ick free quarantine tank, this will not help much I am afraid.

I used paraguard for a month into a QT for my trigger popeye and it was safe enough for the biofilter but it would have killed my coral I am pretty sure. It is formaline after all.

I did not do any other treatment for ick and 4 weeks later I put my trigger into my main tank and he never developed ick. Seem Paraguard took care of any parasites that was on the fish.

Paying 20$ for a QT is nothing compared to the cost of a saltwater fish like a butterfly, mostly 40$ or 50$. I am not rich at all..in fact I just got a job after being 3 months without any income what so ever. I managed to get a QT and buy a small filter and some liverock, plus a small heater. Total cost for about 45$. yeah, it's worth it and all this stuff can be bought used for very cheap on kijiji. 9 fish cost what? enough to be worth saving no?

Originally Posted by Judy Waytiuk

I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?