UPDATED: Any Help is appreciated

kien · #1 11-04-2010, 07:25 PM

Been there, done that, waiting for Brett on the T-Shirt!

Ya, sorry, I won't be much help here either, but I too feel your pain and frustration.

To this day I have no clue what caused my die off. After a few hefty water changes it seemed to sort itself out whatever it was. It certainly was not anything I could test for. Was not the parameters, light, flow, or pellets, all of which are completely unchanged to this day and all my corals are more or less back to their former glory (growth and colour). Go figure.

Sure I would like to know what happened, but I am not going to lose sleep over it. It is what it is and trying to chase it is just an exercise in complete and utter frustration. Do your due diligence and test what you can, water, equipment, etc. and rule those out. If all of that checks out, then there is a variable that you just can't account for.

If I had to guess, my money is on sickness. Animals get sick. Animals that are clones of one another living in a colony are at a higher risk because if one gets sick, they will all get sick very very quickly. Some animals can fight off the illness, some can't. Even in this scenario there are so many variables. As suggested already, an ULNS is a virtual state of starvation for many SPS as we try to keep them alive precariously on the edge. On one hand we strip them of as much nutrient as possible while on the other hand dosing just enough of the nutrients that WE want them to take up so that they look pretty. This in my personal opinion is not their natural state of existence. Out of all the books and programs that I have read on SPS, the conclusion that I have drawn for myself is that some (or many) SPS corals are a lot darker in their natural habitat. They have the exact amount of zoozanthellae that they need to flourish. Some will take up more some less. The most common colour of zoozanthellae is brown! If a particular SPS needs or wants more zoozanthellae to survive, great, it will store more and thus get browner and is perfectly healthy and happy now. However, we as hobbyists don't want that. Instead, we try to get them to expell as much brown zoozanthellae as possible in order to bring out their colours, even if this puts them into a state of starvation.

The bottom line is it is a delicate balance that can tip either way.

Oops! Sorry for the essay/verbal diarrhea.

globaldesigns · #2 11-05-2010, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kien

Been there, done that, waiting for Brett on the T-Shirt!

Ya, sorry, I won't be much help here either, but I too feel your pain and frustration.

To this day I have no clue what caused my die off. After a few hefty water changes it seemed to sort itself out whatever it was. It certainly was not anything I could test for. Was not the parameters, light, flow, or pellets, all of which are completely unchanged to this day and all my corals are more or less back to their former glory (growth and colour). Go figure.

Sure I would like to know what happened, but I am not going to lose sleep over it. It is what it is and trying to chase it is just an exercise in complete and utter frustration. Do your due diligence and test what you can, water, equipment, etc. and rule those out. If all of that checks out, then there is a variable that you just can't account for.

If I had to guess, my money is on sickness. Animals get sick. Animals that are clones of one another living in a colony are at a higher risk because if one gets sick, they will all get sick very very quickly. Some animals can fight off the illness, some can't. Even in this scenario there are so many variables. As suggested already, an ULNS is a virtual state of starvation for many SPS as we try to keep them alive precariously on the edge. On one hand we strip them of as much nutrient as possible while on the other hand dosing just enough of the nutrients that WE want them to take up so that they look pretty. This in my personal opinion is not their natural state of existence. Out of all the books and programs that I have read on SPS, the conclusion that I have drawn for myself is that some (or many) SPS corals are a lot darker in their natural habitat. They have the exact amount of zoozanthellae that they need to flourish. Some will take up more some less. The most common colour of zoozanthellae is brown! If a particular SPS needs or wants more zoozanthellae to survive, great, it will store more and thus get browner and is perfectly healthy and happy now. However, we as hobbyists don't want that. Instead, we try to get them to expell as much brown zoozanthellae as possible in order to bring out their colours, even if this puts them into a state of starvation.

The bottom line is it is a delicate balance that can tip either way.

Oops! Sorry for the essay/verbal diarrhea.

Very well put, I will have to see what happens with the couple new additions I made in treatment. If things don't change then maybe I will have to decide on just letting them be happy, Brown (YUCK), but healthy. Or just remove them and do softies and Zoa's.

Very frustrating.

But I will say, from yesterday to today, there is a huge difference in water clarity. Even cleaner, cleaner than clean, and as stated before a couple softies are reacting better. Maybe I had too much chlorine, cholarmine or whatever Seachem PRIME takes out.

lorenz0 · #3 11-05-2010, 01:14 AM

I still think all you bio-pellet guys are being thick skulled. All looking for answers elsewhere when its right in front of you.

In this thread we have 3 examples of people who ARE running biopellets who are claiming of this unknown variable that is unidentifiable. Most of you guys starting running these back in the spring when they became avaliable to the market and before that had no issues. Think about it. What has changed since than?

These are not a fixed variable that you can control. Were talking about a product that results in depriving the system of nutrients and how do you know how much is being let into your system? Because some jerk off says so? Your better off grabbing the bottle, pouring yourself a glass and dumping an unmeasured dose into your system.

Once again I will say it, you guys are making your systems to complex. And I have seen more people crashing tanks over these pellets than I have seen success stories. People look at sps way to complex of a coral to keep, thinking you need this and that.

Ya Dude · #4 11-05-2010, 01:27 AM

how come the people that loose corals have to keep adding chemicals to they r tank...and they dont even know whats wrong

globaldesigns · #5 11-05-2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenz0

I still think all you bio-pellet guys are being thick skulled. All looking for answers elsewhere when its right in front of you.

In this thread we have 3 examples of people who ARE running biopellets who are claiming of this unknown variable that is unidentifiable. Most of you guys starting running these back in the spring when they became avaliable to the market and before that had no issues. Think about it. What has changed since than?

These are not a fixed variable that you can control. Were talking about a product that results in depriving the system of nutrients and how do you know how much is being let into your system? Because some jerk off says so? Your better off grabbing the bottle, pouring yourself a glass and dumping an unmeasured dose into your system.

Once again I will say it, you guys are making your systems to complex. And I have seen more people crashing tanks over these pellets than I have seen success stories. People look at sps way to complex of a coral to keep, thinking you need this and that.

We are not thick skulled, I have found many articles supporting them, and I follow the usage of how these articles state, plus what the manufacturer now gives in the bag. With people that state they don't work, there are also people that will state they do work. In regards to crashing, I have not read one thread stating a tank crash, Issues maybe related or not to the pellets, but I haven't seen a single statement of tank crash due to pellets.

One thing I noticed is my clams where not extended, so I took the advice previous stated that it may be flow. I have alot of it. With 2 Vortech MP40W's and 2 Koralia #4's with wavemaker, there is alot of movement.

What I did is back off the Koralias 25%, and changed my Vortechs that were running on short pulse mode at full tilt, creating a wave to running at 66% on Reef Crest Mode. Now the clams are extending, its only been about 15 minutes, but they are looking normal.

Maybe I am blasting things way too much, Hmmmm, again i will now leave this and see what happens.

lorenz0 · #6 11-05-2010, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

We are not thick skulled, I have found many articles supporting them, and I follow the usage of how these articles state, plus what the manufacturer now gives in the bag. With people that state they don't work, there are also people that will state they do work. In regards to crashing, I have not read one thread stating a tank crash, Issues maybe related or not to the pellets, but I haven't seen a single statement of tank crash due to pellets.

Funny how you said this. Just got off the phone with my friend and he said use a different metaphor that could be understood a bit better:

Do you take a unwrapped chocloate bar off the shelve, eat it, get diagria and eat more because you believe that this isn't the cause? Or do you look back and realize that you were fine before you ate it and it is the actual issue.

I would start with flow. That is alot of flow and if I remember your tank is like a 4-5' tank

I'm not going to rip apart your post but if you actually believe they they had nothing to do with it, i rest my case

kien · #7 11-05-2010, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenz0

I still think all you bio-pellet guys are being thick skulled. All looking for answers elsewhere when its right in front of you.
.

You know honestly, I would LOVE it if I could point the finger at the bio pellets because then I would have my smoking gun. I would agree that they may be the cause for some peoples issues, however, they were not the cause of mine. We all know that this hobby isn't an exact science and we all draw our own conclusions based on our own experiences and what we see in front of us. I have been running bio pellets since late December of last year which is probably longer than most people here. In my opinion that's quite a lot of bio pellet usage prior to my SPS event. I did briefly consider taking them off line during my event but decided not to because of the fact that they had been running for so long without issue. Granted that was a bit of a gamble. Sure enough, the remaining SPS and new SPS recovered and thrived without me even touching the bio pellets. Through the whole event they helped to keep my Nitrates and Phosphates low. I know because the pellets are the only NP reducing agents currently at work on my tank. I don't run a 'fuge or dose any zeo or VSV. Now that things have made a recovery I have doubled my bio pellet usage to 3 liters in fact, whereas previously I was only running 1.5L.

Personally, I find the use of bio pellets far from complicated. I realize that a lot of people are having troubles with them and to be honest, I have no idea why. Again, all those damn variables I suppose. Me, I have them churning in two reactors daisy chained with a 300gph pump that allows them to tumble gently. That's about it. I don't fidgit with it, i don't stress about how many or how few pellets are in there. To me it is simpler than running carbon! Carbon I just randomly change every month or so without even knowing if it is used up or not. At least with the pellets I can see it being used up.

globaldesigns · #8 12-11-2010, 08:10 PM

Update on SPS:

Well I can honestly say that things look better on the SPS homefront. Some of the SPS I think is far too gone, so they may not recover. But that is only a few, the rest of my SPS is showing signs of growth. Nice white tips and decent polyp extension. So I think things are looking up there.

Other things like my candycanes, brains and other softies are reinflating and looking very happy.

I do think that maybe I have the coral and SPS issues under control now. I changed by removing all dosing and doing a larger weekly water change. Seems to be doing well for me, and I am not dosing anything extra now for supplements. Also cut back on the ZEO additives.

Only issue now, as stated in another thread, is my zoa eating Hippo Tang! But if I need to lose the zoas but can keep the rest alive, then I can live with that.

thanks for all the past advice everyone, it was appreciated.

kien · #9 12-11-2010, 08:12 PM

Good to hear! Darn those Hungry Hungry Hippos!!

globaldesigns · #10 12-11-2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kien

Good to hear! Darn those Hungry Hungry Hippos!!

I did chuckle at that quote! It is discouraging about the zoas, as with all the other things going on, they flourished, now that it seems things are showing signs of improvement, then now them. My hippo Tang is beautiful, and I doubt she will eat the SPS, so I guess I will live without zoas. I would sell them, but they are on my LR and I can't get them out. Oh well!

I think the big things was water changes, since doubling up the water change every week, I now see good signs. And my parameters are spot on, without adding anything extra. So a lesson here is water changes are important, the more the better. I should also say, maybe the second skimmer is helping also, as that is the only other thing different.