newbie piping questions - what size return - what size overflow?

[kien]

oh hey this is where you guys all went!

All you need are two drains to run a herbie as already mentioned. One for the main and one for the emergency. It looks like you have a third in your overflow box? I'd either cap that off and don't use it, or 'T' two of them together as your main and use the third as an emergency. Another option is to use the third as a second emergency which I think you were planning but that is a little overkill. Nothing wrong with that though I guess. If your drains are 1.5" it will be very hard to overflow a wide open 1.5" drain unless your return pump is rated for something insane like 3000gph (don't forget about the loss of flow due to elbow, head and such), which it probably won't because then you're pushing way too much water through your sump in my opinion

Another thing, those holes that you are planning to use as returns, I personally would not use them. They are a bit low and will probably cause overflow in your sump (unless your sump is massive, like 200g and only run at half level) if the power goes out. You can throw a check valve on those but you will need to remove those check valves and clean them frequently otherwise they will gum up with junk and eventually fail. Or worse, what happens if a snail gets in there? If it can happen imagine that it will :-) It may not happen today or tomorrow or next month, but that's the problem with Murphy right? You just don't know when.. Instead, I would run your return up and over the edge of the tank and while you're at it I would run the return pipe to the other end of the tank (opposite from the return overflow).

There's really no right on wrong answer really, whatever you end up doing, if you get water into the sump and out of the sump then it is working. It all boils down to how efficient you want to make it, how much maintenance you want down the road, how much of a failure alleviation factor you want to put in, etc.. Based on my experience with peninsulas that's what I would do :-) There are a crap load of them on canreef, just do a search and you'll find them :-)

[MikeInToronto]

Originally Posted by kien

All you need are two drains to run a herbie as already mentioned. One for the main and one for the emergency. It looks like you have a third in your overflow box? I'd either cap that off and don't use it, or 'T' two of them together as your main and use the third as an emergency. Another option is to use the third as a second emergency which I think you were planning but that is a little overkill. Nothing wrong with that though I guess. If your drains are 1.5" it will be very hard to overflow a wide open 1.5" drain unless your return pump is rated for something insane like 3000gph (don't forget about the loss of flow due to elbow, head and such), which it probably won't because then you're pushing way too much water through your sump in my opinion

He has 3 because he's planning a Beananimal, and he has more than enough room to do it. I wouldn't sacrifice the extra security if I didn't have to, even if I thought it was redundant.

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by kien

It looks like you have a third in your overflow box?

He doesn't have an overflow box yet, just the 2 holes

[Milad]

to answer some questions
I dont have overflow yet
And only two holes drilled around 8in from top 4 inches from side (i dont have aquarium yet so im not sure exact mesurements)

You guys are giving me some great info btw, very appericated
Taking into considertion everything everyone is saying, I made two new models. One has a herbie one has a bean. Both returns feed to other side of tank (now i gota build a damn canopy!)

1in drains, 3/4 return to 1/2 at the end of return (the T for two nozzles).
At the ends of the return, ill drill two holes on each end so it doesn create a siphon when water gets below them.

My biggest concern about the herbie is it looks like I have to try to match the flow of the return pump with the full siphon otherwise its going to make some noise. Plus there is only one emergency which kinda freaks me out.

For the bean, because my holes are so low, I had to "modify" the design by going up then coming back down. Not sure if thats safe or not.

I didnt model the refugium in because it looks like I have to do a herbie/bean to the small 5.5g otherwise all the fail safes im doing on the big tank wont matter if the 5.5g drain clogs. Thoughts? I really wanted a refugium display!

Here is the herbie


Here is the bean

[kien]

You can 'T' off your return and send some return water to your refugium and drain the refugium back into the sump.

Matching a return pump to your overflow isn't hard. You can either trial and error it, or just take a poll and ask others what they are using for return pumps with their herbie overflows.

Think of it this way, your wide open overflow is going to flow out whatever your pump is going to put out. So long as your return pump is rated for less than what your emergency pipe is rated for you're okay. If your 1.5" pipe can do 1500 gph, just make sure your return pump (don't forget to account for head loss, bends, etc), isn't pumping out more than that and your emergency will be fine.

I have a mag18 which is rated for 1800gph (probably getting about 1100gph after head loss, bends, etc), and when my 1.5" drain pipe is wide open there is more than enough flow on the emergency (super noisy though). If you're really worried then just use the third drain pipe as a secondary emergency.

You can also put a ball valve on your return line so that you can adjust the flow of the return pump. So if you end up buying a pump that flows more than your overflow can handle, just throttle it back with the ball valve. I wouldn't completely cut the water with that ball valve though, instead, give it an outlet that feeds back into the sump.

[Milad]

Kien thanks for the info on the herbie. I was looking through your threads on your build all morning, very nice!

Why herbie over beananimal? If im going to drill another hole to handle the second emergency then why dont I just go with the beananimal version. Also is your herbie loud at all?

would you recommend your pump for my setup?

[kien]

Originally Posted by Milad

Kien thanks for the info on the herbie. I was looking through your threads on your build all morning

I'm sorry to hear that.. and I'm afraid there are no refunds for your time lost.

I'm afraid I don't have any experience with beananimals so I can't comment on them.

My herbie is silent, as they should be once you dial them in properly. The only noise coming from the system should be the overflow of water into the overflow box. The higher that water has to drop the noisier it will be so if you do go herbie try to keep that to a minimum. Granted even that isn't a huge amount of noise and applies to any overflow system, not just herbies.

I have not had any issues with my mag18. Your tank is virtually the same dimensions as mine, except yours is a little taller so yes, I would highly recommend that pump. It is quiet and so far bullet proof. Prior to that pump I had a QuietOne 6000 which was actually noisier than the mag18. I also had problems with previous pumps where they would not turn back on after a power fail. So far the mag18 has not failed to restart and I cut power to the return pump at least once a week when I do water changes.

Hope that helps!

[golf nut]

Until we know exactly what size holes are drilled already it is difficult to determine what is the most effective way to continue, if indeed they are 2" then a Herbie will be fine, it isn't possible to have the secondary drain of 1 1/2 flood with the pump size you are considering I doubt any saltwater pump with a 3/4 outlet could get a 1 1/2 drain to kick into siphon mode..

Having the sump returns at the other end is perfect and should still leave you a little window for the refugium, just make sure the refugium drain is large enough to handle all the flow from the return pump should something happen to the sump returns.

ps the sump returns should have elbows on them to move the surface water down the length of the tank, as long as they are just below the surface siphon breaks are not required..