Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

another person in jail for a victimless crime. if i was jailed for not paying income tax it would be a vast net loss to the government, but they don't seem to care, and do it all the time.

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay. You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense. If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave. Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement. If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

[bignose]

Statistics say your more likely to die from the common flu than from swine flu.
Personally I think there is alot more risk driving here in Edmonton than the H1N1!

[intarsiabox]

Last year in Edmonton there were 21 traffic fatalities. There is about 1 million people in the greater Edmonton area so statistically there is only about a 21 in a million chance of dying in a car accident here. Should I take out the car seats for my 2 girls and stop making them wear seat belts? Statistics aren't very comforting if you or a loved one is one of the 21. As a parent it is my responsibility to do everything I can to protect my family and if putting on a seat belt lessens the risk to 1 in million then I will do it. I personaly would never base a decision on statistics because if you are the unlucky one then the statistical rate is 1:1.

[pinhead]

I also finding this discussion becoming tedious so I think this will be my last contribution. It is truly unfortunate that there are people who continue to hold views in light of evidence to the contrary. A few last comments.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

i would just like to see more science and studies, and i don't mind looking for them if i'm told where or what to look for.

This how you do journal research in science. There is a tool called MEDLINE (Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System) which allows you to do a search in about 5000 scientific journals.

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

Other searches yield about 3500 references for H1N1 and 3000 for H5N1 on which the Arepanrix vaccine was based upon.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

what problems you have with the side effect portion of GSK's own product fact sheet for the vaccine?

This are the risks directly from the vaccines' patient information sheet.

Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses): Pain at the injection site, Headache, Fatigue, Redness or swelling at the injection site, Shivering, Sweating, Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth, Fever, Swollen lympth nodes, Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses): Dizziness, Generally feeling unwell, Unusual weakness, Vomiting, stomach pain, uncomfortable feeling in the stomach or belching after eating, ability to sleep, Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet, Shortness of breath, Pain in the chest, Itching, rash, Pain in the back or neck, stiffness in the muscles, muscle spasms, pain in extremity such as leg or hand
Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses): Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases, Fits, Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves, Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses): Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems), Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome

Most of the side effects are what you would expect with any vaccination - pain, bruising and swelling. I would expect the list of rare side effects is there for legal reasons so someone could not say they were uninformed.

For comparison, here is a list of possible side effects from the information sheet for Alka Seltzer: nausea, vomiting, ringing in ears, diminished hearing, confusion, agitation, lethargy, fever, coma, respiratory alkalosis, metabolic acidosis, convulsions, pulmonary edema, cardiovascular collapse.


One last word on Aspartame. A medline search of 111 references regarding Aspartame toxicity gives us the publicly accessible reference. Note the last line in the abstract - Aspartame is safe!

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2007;37(8):629-727.

Aspartame: a safety evaluation based on current use levels, regulations, and toxicological and epidemiological studies.
Magnuson BA, Burdock GA, Doull J, Kroes RM, Marsh GM, Pariza MW, Spencer PS, Waddell WJ, Walker R, Williams GM.

Burdock Group, Washington, DC, USA. bmagnuso@umd.edu

Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.

[EmilyB]

It's too late for me I think....

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by Ron99

I'm pretty much at the point that I really don't see the value of contributing here any longer.

NO Ron, we need you! i was really hoping as an actual scientist you would have something scientific for me that proves that this swine flu vaccine is safer the the last one....

Originally Posted by pinhead

I also finding this discussion becoming tedious so I think this will be my last contribution.

why? all i have been asking for is some real facts, or for someone to say "it's this study, done by this place that proves its safer then the last swine flu vaccine just go look it up".

Originally Posted by pinhead

It is truly unfortunate that there are people who continue to hold views in light of evidence to the contrary.

what evidence?

Originally Posted by pinhead

A few last comments.

but not facts? just comments?

Originally Posted by pinhead

This how you do journal research in science. There is a tool called MEDLINE (Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System) which allows you to do a search in about 5000 scientific journals.

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

Other searches yield about 3500 references for H1N1 and 3000 for H5N1 on which the Arepanrix vaccine was based upon.

that's nice...... have you done this? so there is 3500 references for h1n1 did you read any of them?

Originally Posted by pinhead

This are the risks directly from the vaccines' patient information sheet.

Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses): Pain at the injection site, Headache, Fatigue, Redness or swelling at the injection site, Shivering, Sweating, Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth, Fever, Swollen lympth nodes, Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses): Dizziness, Generally feeling unwell, Unusual weakness, ....

you know what else the "PRODUCT INFORMATION LEAFLET" says:
"Among Arepanrix™ H5N1 or Pandemix™ H5N1 recipients, five (<0.1%) had fatal serious adverse events, including two instances of ovarian carcinoma, a metastatic malignancy of unspecified type, a myocardial infarction, and exacerbation of diabetes mellitus and hepatic cirrhosis. Among placebo recipients, three (0.1%) sustained fatal serious adverse events one instance of brain neoplasm, one instance of cardiomegaly secondary to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and one instance of bilateral pneumonia. During six months of follow-up for the entire group of 9,873 Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients, 7 (<0.1%) reported an Adverse Event of Special Interest as defined by EMEA. Four subjects reported facial palsy (Bell’s palsy) at intervals ranging from hours to 135 days after vaccine exposure; all of these resolved spontaneously and completely. A 45 year old male had an anaphylactic reaction to food six (6) days after first exposure to H5N/AS03 vaccine, and a 25 year old white female had a single episode of convulsions 35 days after the second dose. None of these Adverse Events of Special Interest was assessed as treatment-related by the investigators. One 48 year old female had “neuritis” with onset almost immediately after injection. Symptoms were localized entirely to the injected arm and compatible with a perineural injection injury; the problem resolved spontaneously. Eleven of 9,873 (0.1%) Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients were reported to have potential immune-mediated diseases. Diagnoses included two instances of psoriasis, four instances of polymyalgia rheumatica (all in 59 to 84 year-old women, three of whom had symptoms antedating vaccine), and one instance each of Grave’s disease, uveitis, scleroderma, isolated IVth nerve palsy, and erythema nodosum. None of these was assessed as a serious adverse event or as related to the investigational vaccine by the investigators."

"Pain at the injection site was the most commonly reported solicited local symptom in both Arepanrix™ H5N1 and placebo groups and was reported at a 6-fold higher frequency (i.e. following 73% of doses) in the Arepanrix™ H5N1 group. Despite the high incidence of injection site pain, the incidence of severe pain was low, with reports occurring after 2.7% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 0.4% of placebo doses. Overall, severe solicited or unsolicited adverse events of any type occurred in the 7 days after 6.4 to 7.0% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 3.6% of placebo doses. The most common severe solicited adverse event was local injection site pain; all severe general solicited adverse events occurred after <2% of doses.
Other/Additional adverse reactions reported are listed according to the following frequency classification:
Very common (≥1/10)
Common (≥1/100 to <1/10)
Uncommon (≥1/1,000 to <1/100)
Rare (≥1/10,000 to <1/1,000)
Very rare (<1/10,000)
Not known (cannot be estimated from the available data)
Blood and lymphatic system disorders
Common: lymphadenopathy
Psychiatric disorders
Uncommon: insomnia
Nervous system disorders
Uncommon: dizziness, paraesthesia
Ear and labyrinth disorders
Uncommon: vertigo
Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders
Uncommon: dyspnoea
Gastrointestinal disorders
Common: nausea, diarrhoea
Uncommon: abdominal pain, vomiting, dyspepsia, stomach discomfort
Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders
Common: pruritus
Uncommon: rash
Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders
Uncommon: back pain, musculoskeletal stiffness, neck pain, muscle spasms, pain in extremity
General disorders and administration site conditions
Common: injection site reactions (such as bruising, pruritus, warmth)
Uncommon: asthenia, chest pain, malaise"

Originally Posted by pinhead

I would expect the list of rare side effects is there for legal reasons so someone could not say they were uninformed.

have you even read the information sheet? they are not in there for insurance or legal reasons.

Originally Posted by pinhead

For comparison, here is a list of possible side effects from the information sheet for Alka Seltzer: nausea, vomiting, ringing in ears, diminished hearing, confusion, agitation, lethargy, fever, coma, respiratory alkalosis, metabolic acidosis, convulsions, pulmonary edema, cardiovascular collapse.

whats the chances? 1 in 10? 1 in 1000? 1 in 100000000? and i don't ever remember anyone saying "here kids take an alka-seltzer just in case!"

Originally Posted by pinhead

One last word on Aspartame. A medline search of 111 references regarding Aspartame toxicity gives us the publicly accessible reference. Note the last line in the abstract - Aspartame is safe!

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2007;37(8):629-727.

Aspartame: a safety evaluation based on current use levels, regulations, and toxicological and epidemiological studies.
Magnuson BA, Burdock GA, Doull J, Kroes RM, Marsh GM, Pariza MW, Spencer PS, Waddell WJ, Walker R, Williams GM.

Burdock Group, Washington, DC, USA. bmagnuso@umd.edu

Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.

from personal experience i know aspartame to be toxic. i know way to many people who had serious and often quite unusual or rare health problems mysteriously disappear without any treatment, just by removing usually either diet soda, or gum from their diet. i have seen many studies for and against it. many say it may have something more to do with the breakdown ingredients of Aspartame that greatly increase in concentration when stored at high temperatures. in my mind this one is still very much up in the air.

[findingnemo1]

Okay we'll here is what i know is the TRUTH!!!!

This gives the word "flu" a whole new meaning. I have had the "normal" seasonal flu and ya it sucks. But THIS is a whole new world. I can tell you exactly the min it hit me. And it hits you like a semi truck from min one and doesn't let up for at least a week.I was laid out for 10 days and i still get tired easily and still have the cough etc. I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work. I exposed my children and husband and pray that they dont get it as i was to sick to get them out for there shots. I had to struggle to breath and i ran a fever of 40-41.5 for 5 days. I couldn't sleep and i couldn't eat and my chest has never felt that bad from not coughing. I had to go back to the urgent care 5 days into it for new medication and just sitting in a waiting room is hard work.
I SHUDDER at the thought of some young child getting this. I had a hard time fighting it off and i am healthy. The same goes for the ederly. There is no way they can fight this. I am healthy we take viatmins we eat good. I get a decent amnt of sleep but let me tell you this is not the seasonal flu people.

Yes we all have to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs. But i am here to tell you this is like no other. I would not wish that upon anyone.
I cannot stress how this is unlike the normal "Flu"
Its not its a killer and u don't want it. You don't want your children,spouse,parents to get this. It is a fight from the second you get it.

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

Make your own decisions that you feel good about.

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by findingnemo1

I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work.

antibiotics? that means they were treating you for a bacterial infection, not h1n1? i thought the only thing they could treat flu with was tamaflu because is a virus?
and have you ever tried colloidal silver? its one of natures most powerful antibiotics, and is cheap! it really helped clear up my seasonal flu or whatever this year.

Originally Posted by findingnemo1

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

i was to the understanding that even if you get the flu really bad and are down and out for even a few weeks it is technically a good thing every once and a while, as long as you don't die from it. getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.

[RuGlu6]

Originally Posted by findingnemo1

Okay we'll here is what i know is the TRUTH!!!!

This gives the word "flu" a whole new meaning. I have had the "normal" seasonal flu and ya it sucks. But THIS is a whole new world. I can tell you exactly the min it hit me. And it hits you like a semi truck from min one and doesn't let up for at least a week.I was laid out for 10 days and i still get tired easily and still have the cough etc. I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work. I exposed my children and husband and pray that they dont get it as i was to sick to get them out for there shots. I had to struggle to breath and i ran a fever of 40-41.5 for 5 days. I couldn't sleep and i couldn't eat and my chest has never felt that bad from not coughing. I had to go back to the urgent care 5 days into it for new medication and just sitting in a waiting room is hard work.
I SHUDDER at the thought of some young child getting this. I had a hard time fighting it off and i am healthy. The same goes for the ederly. There is no way they can fight this. I am healthy we take viatmins we eat good. I get a decent amnt of sleep but let me tell you this is not the seasonal flu people.

Yes we all have to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs. But i am here to tell you this is like no other. I would not wish that upon anyone.
I cannot stress how this is unlike the normal "Flu"
Its not its a killer and u don't want it. You don't want your children,spouse,parents to get this. It is a fight from the second you get it.

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

Make your own decisions that you feel good about.

Just remember this: VACCINATION DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL NOT GET A FLU !!!
Side effect of the vaccine is worse then the flu itself, and they are long term which makes a long term customer to big farma.
Read the actual MSDS on the vaccine and then make your decision before your children take it!
Do your home work, don't trust someone who told you its safe!

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay.

i dont know the % and personally i don't care when it comes to taking peoples freedoms there is no 99.9% of the time is good enough. but that's a personal belief. however, here is the facts from my good pals at CRA
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/rlss/...80123-eng.html
"26 offenders to more than 37 years in prison. Sentences for those who were ordered to serve jail time for tax-related offenses ranged from 1 month to 3 years."
owch, personally i don't think that's worth it. no one should be jailed for tax evasion considering no harm was technically done.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense.

since your an a accountant i'm sure how you can see these costs can add up.
(37 years jail time) X ($25,000 per year to jail an inmate.)= $925,000 / (26 people imprisoned) = ~35,000 per person. what amount of tax collection from these people will justify their imprisonment to you?

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave.

i feel that our government has not been looking out for citizens like it should for a long time. what makes you think i would leave such a beautiful country, , what it stands for, and our constitution / bill of rights?. do you believe in freedom of speech and do you think that is part of what Canada is all about?
there is nothing wrong with question income taxes. especially since direct taxation by the federal government used to be unlawful , again.... history. before ww1, no income tax, after ww1 income tax. basic high school history at that.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement.

i agree our freedom of speech is intact and a wonderful thing. it however it being intact today could mean many things though.
i never said or remember anyone who said the h1n1 vaccine is a requirement... that definition/example was given to help illustrate how the government doesn't really care about the welfare of its people not suggest they are willing to extort us to take vaccines.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

i won't. just like i wont stop with the truth bullets.