Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[The Codfather]

I can hardy stand to read this anymore, it is obvious to me that some people on here do not have kids or family members. I cannot believe that some people would not get this vaccine to save lives and reduce the chance of severity to family members. I have a six week old baby at home and if i brought this into my house and gave it too my children and something terrible was to happen, i would never forgive myself. Wake up people, this is not some conspiracy, this is the beginning of a pandemic, do what you will, but remember this. If you or your family decide not to take the vaccine, I truly hope you are not the one, sitting at a bedside watching as another is on a ventilator. I cannot and will not take that chance with my family. Bottom line- What are you willing to risk?

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

So I guess you built and maintained all the roads you drive on? Pay for the police force so you're not murdered or robbed daily? Pay for the military so you're not working in a concentration camp? Pay for the doctors, hospitals and ambulances for broken bones, cancer, etc.? The endless social list goes on. Talk about thinking that the world owes you a living! The money isn't always spent wisely but all those essential services are there and available to all Canadians. Extortion would imply that you are getting nothing in return but you are just taking for granted everything you have in one of the best countries in the world. Our high standard of living doesn't come free. I bitch about taxes too but people need to stop and think about what hey are getting and also think of others being helped with disabilities or handicaps who would otherwise lead very short miserable lives. I am young, healthy and working and this group pays the most so it is easy to feel ripped off, but health and age change very quickly.

there are some taxes i have no problem with. gas tax helps pay for roads, cigarette/alcohol/gambling taxes help out health care. education is from your property taxes. but often we are lead to some kind of disillusionment about how our government governs us. it has always and shall be until they change it a government by consent. you have a choice to buy gas, lotto tickets, liquor, or live a city or the country. but as far as the government is concerned income tax is one of those things you just don't have a choice over whether you consent to it or not. if the government finds out you make money lawfully, and you aren't paying your taxes, they arn't going to tell the police to stop protecting you, or doctors to stop treating you, or for you to not drive on highways. they are going to harass you with agents, arrest you and try hard as they can to lock you up for not consenting to their taxation system, another person in jail for a victimless crime. there's no denial of service. plus i would like to add the cost is around 30K per year per male and 50k per female per year to put in jail white collar or not. not to mention the court and enforcement costs of taxes. if i was jailed for not paying income tax it would be a vast net loss to the government, but they don't seem to care, and do it all the time. is it worth the intimidation and incarceration of its people just so they pay their taxes?
but its not just that its unjust, and unlawful to incarcerate someone who doesn't pay taxes. because they aren't just giving you benefits from the government for the exchange of your tax dollars, they are giving you a choice: if you work in Canada we want our cut or else you live in jail. and that's not what i think Canada should stand for. because i doubt everyone lived in a giant prison before income taxes were created during WW1. so whay should that be the case now? the banking/economic systems today is seriously unhealthy if you haven't noticed. i know in the USA today 95% of all wealth is divided among less then 1% of the people, Canada is a little bit better, but not much. our current income tax code does not reflect this great divide in prosperity, and probably never will considering the lobbying powers of the wealthy.

Money as Debt
Money as Debt II
THE CRIME OF THE CANADIAN BANKING SYSTEM
please check out the Auditor generals report of 1993.
from the section: Chapter 5—Information for Parliament—Understanding Deficits and Debt
"The cost of borrowing
5.41 The cost of borrowing is the third area that affects the annual deficit. In 1991-92, the interest on the debt was $41 billion. This cost of borrowing and its compounding effect have a significant impact on Canada's annual deficits. From Confederation up to 1991-92, the federal government accumulated a net debt of $423 billion. Of this, $37 billion represents the accumulated shortfall in meeting the cost of government programs since Confederation. The remainder, $386 billion, represents the amount the government has borrowed to service the debt created by previous annual shortfalls.

5.42 We do not take a position on whether budgets should be balanced, or accumulated debt should be reduced. We are simply illustrating the long-term effects of compounding interest charges.

5.43 The amount of debt . The total cost of borrowing is influenced by three factors: the amount of debt, its management, and the rate of interest on the portfolio of debt. Exhibit 5.3 shows that, since Confederation, Canada has consistently used debt financing to cover some of the cost of operations. By the end of World War II, the accumulated debt was at $13 billion, giving a debt-to-GDP ratio of approximately 108 percent. Most observers of government financing would agree that the high debt-to-GDP ratio at the end of World War II was caused by the need to generate substantial industrial production for the war effort without resorting to taxation to cover its full cost. This meant that immediately after the war, there was considerable room for expenditure reduction through cuts in defence spending. "





1976 Swine Flu
46 million took the shot. 4000 claimed injury.
46,000,000/4000=1 in 11500
granted it could be more or less, depending on: how many reactions were attributed to swine flu but was another condition, or how many people were injured by the shot and didn't know or said nothing ect.

[midgetwaiter]

I missed a couple days of this because my "mild" flu took a turn and I couldn't walk without smashing into things. Seriously, if you haven't had this you have no idea.

Blue Tang, sorry about your friend, hope you are feeling better.

Ron99, thanks for your participation, nice to hear from somebody that knows their stuff.

Dingbats and loonies, I've always looked on you people with the type of fondness one shows a three legged dog, it's not your fault you look silly. In this case I have to say your stupidity is putting other people at risk.

Thanks to pinhead we can see that many of the same people that are convinced the flu shot is unnecessary or is going to hurt them also believe that there is a secret program involving planes flying over our cities dumping strange chemicals into the air that modify our behavior. They also believe that the US Government carried out the world trade center attacks, these people are idiots. There is a tendency in our society to be respectful to people regardless of what strange ideas they hold. This is generally a good thing, otherwise we'd have scientologists hanging from trees. However there is a point where good intentioned debate and niceties are no longer appropriate and this point is right at the end of my nose.

Your inability to understand math puts me and my family at risk, that is not okay. 2.5 micrograms of a non toxic mercury compound isn't going to hurt anyone. The squalene additive in the GSK vaccine has been used in 22 million doses in the UK. There is no extraordinary danger in this vaccine, count to 22 million on your fingers and toes.

If someone has a rational question about how this vaccine works I'd love to hear it. Dingbats be quiet, adults are talking.

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

I missed a couple days of this because my "mild" flu took a turn and I couldn't walk without smashing into things. Seriously, if you haven't had this you have no idea.

sorry to hear that.

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Dingbats and loonies, I've always looked on you people with the type of fondness one shows a three legged dog, it's not your fault you look silly. In this case I have to say your stupidity is putting other people at risk.

do you remember history? who has done the most damage to humanity? governments. look at Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. Hitler was democratically elected, and his political contributions came from vast sources, even traceable to the British royal family, and the Bush family. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004...secondworldwar
remember the Canadian government put Japanese in concentration camps during WW2. our governments stupidity and its more then willingness to cover it up is really what costs lives of families.

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Your inability to understand math puts me and my family at risk, that is not okay

my ability should have no effect on you. you have a brain, use it, if you want it use it. i personally will not put anything in my body like that unless its a dire circumstance, small pox for example. but again this is choice. again anything anyone says should have no effect on you making choices for your family's health. especially when its on some internet forum or such .
like it was said by many presidents in one way or another; i am assured that the people, when properly informed, will not fail to act in the appropriate manner.

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

If someone has a rational question about how this vaccine works I'd love to hear it. Dingbats be quiet, adults are talking.

yeah, so childishness aside.....
what don't you like about what i said?
where are your facts that say no the product information sheet from GSK is wrong? it lists some pretty bad side effects. where are your studies your relying on to prove that what your giving your child is safe?
i'm quoting from government and manufacturing guides.
i just don't like when you make a blanket statement like everyone who thinks there might be something wrong with a vaccine is a "Dingbat" and should "be quiet"

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

many of the same people that are convinced the flu shot is unnecessary or is going to hurt them also believe that there is a secret program involving planes flying over our cities dumping strange chemicals into the air that modify our behavior. They also believe that the US Government carried out the world trade center attacks, these people are idiots.

1. why do you think that 9/11 was real? because if you believe the government, you are now part of the minority that thinks 9/11 happened exactly as the government said. i would like to know what you base your bashing of other peoples ideas for.
2. no one is talking about chem trails accept for you and pinhead so yeah....
3. why do you sound so sure of everyone's beliefs? look at the poll numbers
55 i'm taking it
64 no
24 it's a conspiracy
we will leave the others out beacuse i would say its a 50/50 chance they get it or not.
so your blanket statements really make it seem like at least 1 in 6 responding to this poll is a nut job.

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

another person in jail for a victimless crime. if i was jailed for not paying income tax it would be a vast net loss to the government, but they don't seem to care, and do it all the time.

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay. You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense. If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave. Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement. If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

[bignose]

Statistics say your more likely to die from the common flu than from swine flu.
Personally I think there is alot more risk driving here in Edmonton than the H1N1!

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay.

i dont know the % and personally i don't care when it comes to taking peoples freedoms there is no 99.9% of the time is good enough. but that's a personal belief. however, here is the facts from my good pals at CRA
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/rlss/...80123-eng.html
"26 offenders to more than 37 years in prison. Sentences for those who were ordered to serve jail time for tax-related offenses ranged from 1 month to 3 years."
owch, personally i don't think that's worth it. no one should be jailed for tax evasion considering no harm was technically done.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense.

since your an a accountant i'm sure how you can see these costs can add up.
(37 years jail time) X ($25,000 per year to jail an inmate.)= $925,000 / (26 people imprisoned) = ~35,000 per person. what amount of tax collection from these people will justify their imprisonment to you?

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave.

i feel that our government has not been looking out for citizens like it should for a long time. what makes you think i would leave such a beautiful country, , what it stands for, and our constitution / bill of rights?. do you believe in freedom of speech and do you think that is part of what Canada is all about?
there is nothing wrong with question income taxes. especially since direct taxation by the federal government used to be unlawful , again.... history. before ww1, no income tax, after ww1 income tax. basic high school history at that.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement.

i agree our freedom of speech is intact and a wonderful thing. it however it being intact today could mean many things though.
i never said or remember anyone who said the h1n1 vaccine is a requirement... that definition/example was given to help illustrate how the government doesn't really care about the welfare of its people not suggest they are willing to extort us to take vaccines.

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

i won't. just like i wont stop with the truth bullets.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

whats the difference between what you say and Wikipedia? bring me some facts bro. your just saying things. not to say they arnt true. i would just like to know your sources on these things:

Well, I have university degrees in toxicology and pharmacology and have spent umpteen years working in pharmaceutical R&D as well as diagnostic microbiology labs so I think that makes me more qualified then some guy making youtube videos etc. or people regurgitating stuff on wikipedia If you really want to do research read things from real scientific websites or publications. Stuff from real experiments and real testing in real labs or real clinical trials with actual data to support the conclusions.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

there is less mercury in a shot of vaccine then in a can of tuna

Most testing puts the level of mercury in canned tuna at between .3 and about .55 parts per million (depending on what type of tuna you eat). I won't list all the calculations but that works out to well over 50 micrograms of methylmercury in an average serving of tuna. The vaccine contains 5 micrograms of thimerosal which is also a much less toxic mercury containing compound then methylmercury. if you want to get really picky, thimerosal contains just under 50% mercury by weight so you are getting about 2.5 micrograms of mercury from the vaccine. Methylmercury contains about 93% mercury so your serving of tuna is over 46.5 micrograms of mercury.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

H1N1 is currently not the most deadly flu ever, it is more serious then the normal seasonal flu

There have been numerous flu pandemics in the past with much more deadly strains of flu then the current H1N1. Somebody asked earlier about the PB1-F2 protein which is a protein some flu viruses produce that increases their ability to kill the cells they infect. It appears that some of the viruses from those deadlier pandemics did produce PB1-F2. Production of that protein has been shown to cause significantly more inflammation and higher mortality rates in the infected animals. The H1N1 virus does contain the gene to produce the PB1-F2 protein but it is currently turned off by a stop codon in the DNA code (basically a label in the DNA that says do not encode this gene right now). It is not inconceivable that the virus could mutate and this stop codon would be removed therefore activating the PB1-F2 gene and creating a more virulent and deadly strain of H1N1. Don't ask me the odds of that. I'm not a viral geneticist. But I know enough to know it could happen and the odds of it happening are more likely the more the virus reproduces. So reduce the spread of the virus, you reduce the occurrence of viral reproduction and you reduce the number of mutations that occur so therefore there is a lower chance of this mutation happening. The flu virus is constantly mutating, probably in your own body when you catch the flu. The majority of these mutations are either neutral or negative to the virus but statistically speaking, the more often mutations occur the greater the chance of a mutaion that makes the virus stronger.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

the small amounts of these compounds found in the vaccine are not toxic. I REPEAT, NOT TOXIC.

Okay, everybody else who is a toxicologist, raise your hand I do know a bit about this stuff.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

more people infected and the more it spreads, the greater the chance it could mutate into an even more virulent and deadly strain. Large scale vaccination can help prevent that.

See above. Basic genetics, evolution and virology.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

Trace amounts of formaldehyde means barely detectable in the vaccine. Your own body probably produces more formaldehyde through your own metabolism then you will find in the vaccine and has mechanisms to deal with and excrete it.

I really don't want to get into a whole textbook on biochemistry and physiology. You'll have to trust me on that one or do some reading about it yourself. Your body produces a lot of noxious waste material as it goes about its daily business and it also takes in many toxic compounds normally through our food, water and air. We have evolved wonderful mechanisms to break down and excrete all sorts of things. Formaldehyde is a very common compound in nature and one which your body is more than capable of dealing with unless you are drinking an entire bottle of it.

As for those side effects, that is typical lawyer super conservative stuff. If 1 in 1000 people suffered those kinds of side effects from flu vaccines then there would be a public outcry every flu season and we would not be using them so commonly. The odds of having those severe reactions are probably more like 1 in a million.