Thoughts on over skimming

[Myka]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I do have a few kinds macro algae kicking around still, but nothing serious. I don't really have much that eats it though but it is slowly decreasing. For the most part this algae is limited to the back pane and a small section of rock at the front of the tank. The rest of the rock is bare with no forms of algae. Coraline is very limited, I maintain a lower Ca (400) and Alk (8) than most and I've avoided introducing coraline as I'm not a huge fan, it's hard to clean and can become overwhelming. Pod population is good but the other stuff is limited, the tank is still fairly new and the rock was cleaned and re-cured from my previous setup so the transfer was also limited.

I do feed some meaty foods from time to time and I probably should be more aggressive but I've found lately that feeding tentacles are not showing up as often. Also some LPS corals are still doing well, such as dendo, chalice, trumpet, duncan, and closed brains. I try to avoid those power foods and I think they tend to do more harm than good but would be willing to use them again if results would improve. I definitely would consider dosing some zeo products again like LPS amino but currently I'm not dosing anything of the sort and would prefer to find the root of the problem first and then add certain things for further improvement.

If you do post on Zeo and get some relative information please let me know and send me a link. That would be much appreciated.

I maintain calcium and alkinity only slightly higher than you...I don't think that would be any issue at all. You're still very close to NSW.

Not seeing feeding tentacles is definitely a poor sign. Ime, the LPS that aren't putting out their feeders are the ones that are past the point of being hungry and are now starving. Of course there could be other reasons too, but I really think you need to feed them more. I actually haven't tried the Zeo AA LPS yet...I keep forgetting about that one.

Where you said "power" did you mean "powder"? If so, I wouldn't bother. I think those powdered foods are great for polluting the tank and not much more. However, I do like to use Coral Frenzy when my Favia has all its tentacles out I will mix a very small amount of CF with saltwater and let it soak for 10 mins so it doesn't float, then turkey baste it over the Favia's tentacles. It seems to appreciate that, but I don't do that very often.

I put a post on Zeo forums, but there is only one reply so far, and it suggests no issues: http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18221

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I don't have heavy light in my tank and I keep my LPS lower or in shady areas. The LPS did fine at first but lately a decrease in health in some is obvious.

From my experience higher nutrients results in healthier LPS, my first reef tank was an LPS tank, basically skimmerless and I never fed them, never have I had LPS corals as healthy as they were in that tank.


I'm willing to sacrifice some SPS color for healthier LPS, i would actually prefer to keep a more LPS dominant tank. Can any one see any potential problems resulting from running a skimmer on a half duty cycle over night?

the first thing that pops out to me is "I don`t have heavy light in my tank".

the reason this is jumping out at me is you have to think of LPS like SPS but more flesh. yes they will do good under low light if they are fed, but when you are skimming heavily how are they getting fed? when you have intense lighting just like a SPS they will expell symbiotic algae as they don't need as many to create food for them other wise they need food by being fed directly or by adsorbing it from the water colum.. if you don't target feed frequently, or like dirty water then you need enough light to sustain them. take my open brain as an example.. when I was running PS and VHO he was about 3" dia at the base (6" when expanded) and would eat 1 or 2 krill a day as I upgraded the lighting he started taking less food then it got to the point I could put mysis all over him and he wouldn't feed, but he kept growing and getting more color. when I had the tank melt down (heater got stuck on in a temp tank when I was removing the sand bed) he had a skeliton of 6 to 7" dia and would be almost 14" when expanded but he hadn't taken food in over 6 months. I could only conclude that he was getting all the food he needed from his internal algae and the lights.

so would I recomend overskimming with lower light power.. nope, you want crystal clean water you need plenty of light power.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

How low does your PH drop at night. Your tank is well stocked so there must be significant coral respiration at night that would add a lot of Co2. A reverse photoperiod refugium would keep your nightly dissolved oxygen rates high and balance PH if that in fact is an issue.

I have mixed feelings about cutting back flow at night. On one hand it replicates natural reef conditions and allows plankton to get around better at night, but on the other hand it may lower dissolved oxygen, make it harder to off-gas Co2, and higher flow may be better for feeding extended night feeders.

Whatever you are doing right to keep phosphate and nitrate at zero appears to be great for your SPS, and not so good for LPS. I would guess that it's the low nutrients and not high toxic metal concentrations that are limiting LPS success.

Rather than limit what you are doing right (nutrient reduction & export through protein skimming and water changes), I would increase nutrient import with Phytoplankton, rotifers and whatever you prefer to feed. I've read a few threads on RC about dosing phosphate and nitrate, but I think they should be added via food, not chemically.

I updated the firmware on my controller the other day which seems to have reset the stored calibration numbers, I need to recalibrate to get a more recent reading but I believe it drops to around 7.8 but will check later.

I know what you mean about the lower flow at night but the power heads only cut back to 30% so they still move a little water and i still have 10X through the return I mainly cut it back because it makes a little quiet time for the seahorse which takes full opportunity to come out and swim a little each night.
I'm not really into the refugium thing right now, I'm trying to keep things simple and clean with this tank and I think the it will create more complication than benefit. Personally I think running the skimmer at night might be a better option than the day. The skimmer is also the only part of the tank that makes any real noise, if the only time it's on is when I'm sleeping I can see that itself being a significant benefit.

I can always turn the skimmer off while I'm feeding. During feeding of any sort I always activate a feeding pause which shuts off everything for 20min, and the skimmer has an additional delay of 30min.

I'm going to experiment and shut the skimmer off during the day, it's large enough that I don't see the need for it anyway and I can always turn it back on at anytime. I'll cut back water changes, work on the algae, feed more and try dosing some stuff like phyto (live or processed btw??) and some zeo products.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Myka

Where you said "power" did you mean "powder"? If so, I wouldn't bother. I think those powdered foods are great for polluting the tank and not much more. However, I do like to use Coral Frenzy when my Favia has all its tentacles out I will mix a very small amount of CF with saltwater and let it soak for 10 mins so it doesn't float, then turkey baste it over the Favia's tentacles. It seems to appreciate that, but I don't do that very often.

I put a post on Zeo forums, but there is only one reply so far, and it suggests no issues: http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18221

Thanks for the link, I'll keep an eye on it. Yeah I meant powder, right now I'm not sure if the pollution it causes would be bad or good.

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm going to experiment and shut the skimmer off during the day, it's large enough that I don't see the need for it anyway and I can always turn it back on at anytime. I'll cut back water changes, work on the algae, feed more and try dosing some stuff like phyto (live or processed btw??) and some zeo products.

I don't know if doing all of these things at once is a good idea, I understand the reasoning but if things turn around would you not still be unsure as to which particular change you made produced the end result?

[mr.wilson]

Use whatever phyto you can find that isn't overloaded with heavy metals, or trace elements as we call them.

The nightly PH drop is hard on certain corals like xenia and most SPS, but not so much with LPS. You could have secondary metabolites (allelopathy) stressing out the LPS. You will definitely have more once you shut down the skimmer.

I agree that adding a refugium just to regulate night PH drops isn't worth the negative aspects (tinted water, secondary metabolites, and further nutrient depletion). If your nutrient levels are already at zero, a refugium doesn't offer you much for the hassle. You could consider growing xenia or whatever grows best for you, in the sump on a reverse photoperiod. It would export heavy metals and pay for the extra food you will be adding

Running the skimmer at night will at least assure you are oxygenating the water as much as you can. My suggestion of shutting it off at night may not work so well in that respect.

What's you reasoning on not using carbon? Do you use any ion exchange resins or phosphate removers? You might want to reconsider carbon if you are cutting back on skimming to take care of secondary metabolites.

How is your salinity (sodium level specifically) with your balling system? You may have an ionic imbalance of some sort, but the fact that your issues are with LPS I would still guess it's a nutrition issue and not chemical. The amino acids may do the trick. If the problem persists you could take the plunge and try vitamin C (ascorbic acid) dosing.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

the first thing that pops out to me is "I don`t have heavy light in my tank".

the reason this is jumping out at me is you have to think of LPS like SPS but more flesh. yes they will do good under low light if they are fed, but when you are skimming heavily how are they getting fed? when you have intense lighting just like a SPS they will expell symbiotic algae as they don't need as many to create food for them other wise they need food by being fed directly or by adsorbing it from the water colum.. if you don't target feed frequently, or like dirty water then you need enough light to sustain them. take my open brain as an example.. when I was running PS and VHO he was about 3" dia at the base (6" when expanded) and would eat 1 or 2 krill a day as I upgraded the lighting he started taking less food then it got to the point I could put mysis all over him and he wouldn't feed, but he kept growing and getting more color. when I had the tank melt down (heater got stuck on in a temp tank when I was removing the sand bed) he had a skeliton of 6 to 7" dia and would be almost 14" when expanded but he hadn't taken food in over 6 months. I could only conclude that he was getting all the food he needed from his internal algae and the lights.

so would I recomend overskimming with lower light power.. nope, you want crystal clean water you need plenty of light power.

Steve

I've experimented with a few of my LPS and moved them in brighter light and they would show signs of bleaching and when moved back into lower light would color back up. I think the problem is beyond lighting. It's not heavy lighting but it's not dim either; 2 x 250W DE 14K Phoenix run on HQI and two 54W 22K T5s.

Steve what are you using for a skimmer and what size tank and bio-load? Maybe you're not over skimming as much as me, my bio-load is quite small, 5 fish and I also have 3 large clams (not that there necessarily doing much nutrient export). My skimmer is rated for 250-750 gallon aquariums, having a larger skimmer is good but I'm starting to think mine is just too big.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Mr OM

I don't know if doing all of these things at once is a good idea, I understand the reasoning but if things turn around would you not still be unsure as to which particular change you made produced the end result?

What would you recommend? I was planning on phasing everything in slowly and going from there. Just cutting the skimmer and water changes back may only maintain levels and not restore them but only adding things may not be enough to offset the skimmer if left on. The ultimate goal to me right now seems to be geared to increasing the nutrient level of tank and then attempt to maintain it at a level which provides a healthy balance for all corals in the tank. Should be easy

[mr.wilson]

You could just de-tune (lower water level & or restrict air intake) your skimmer so it's always on but skimming less.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

What's you reasoning on not using carbon? Do you use any ion exchange resins or phosphate removers? You might want to reconsider carbon if you are cutting back on skimming to take care of secondary metabolites.

How is your salinity (sodium level specifically) with your balling system? You may have an ionic imbalance of some sort, but the fact that your issues are with LPS I would still guess it's a nutrition issue and not chemical. The amino acids may do the trick. If the problem persists you could take the plunge and try vitamin C (ascorbic acid) dosing.

I like using carbon but I haven't gotten around to building a sump that will really allow for it. I do feel the proper sump would be beneficial and I should move it up the priority list, which will happen soon enough with winter around the corner.

I don't currently use a balling system, it was in the original plan but I'm not set on it yet. I currently just use Kalk and water changes to maintain everything at this point in time. Salinity stays constant as far as I know. I'm definitely going to try the amino and the vitamin C intrigues me so I'll have to look into it.