Copperband (pls. close)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by leezard

Yet another noob question.... where would the cyanide poisoning come from (if that's what is actually is)?

Any country that collects fish for the trade. But most likely Philippines and its becoming more and more common in Indonesia now too.

They put cyanide in little squirt bottles to take on collection dives. When the fish get scared and hide in the rocks or coral heads, they squirt cyanide into their hiding spot to stun them and the fish float out. Estimates are that about half die right away and half are just stunned for the time being. But of that half that actually are collected, many still are way too weak to make it to land even. The rest often die in our tanks. The cyanide does not stay in the fishes system long at all. It actually gone relatively fast but it leaves behind permanent damage. Perfect for these collectors. The fish will appear healthy and survive until it gets to someones tank. What you don't know is that this fish has a damaged liver or other internal organs and is actually dying slowly. It can take months.

National Geographic put out a study saying that for every one cyanide fish that is caught and makes it to our tanks, a square meter of reef is destroyed--the cyanide kills the corals too of course. Kills inverts, kills mostly everything it comes in contact with. It does dissipate quite quickly in saltwater, so that saves the area from being completely destroyed but after years and years of this, the reefs in some area of the Philippines are looking rough from all the cyanide exposure. I have seen this first hand.

In fact last year we were on a dive in the Philippines and came across what must have been hundreds of very healthy looking dead fish on the bottom of one area of a reef. I was really confused and it was such a sad sight. Of course my dad and I asked after what it was and our guide told us it was nothing...tried to brush it off. We persisted and eventually he admitted it was cyanide fishing and that these collectors had been now moving into tourist areas even. They come early in the morning before anyone was out there and then disappear. My dad got a lot of info out of him about cyanide poisoning. He pretty much said it was rampant around the islands and that no one cared.

Its a big issue that not too many people want to admit is happening and even less can or will do anything about it. You've seen what happens when its brought up here

[Funky_Fish14]

Im very sorry to hear about your loss Its difficult to lose any animal or certainly 'friend'.

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

The cyanide does not stay in the fishes system long at all. It actually gone relatively fast but it leaves behind permanent damage.

I have to interject with this statement - Cyanide is actually an inhibitor that attaches almost permanently to trigger sites in biological structures. It can bond anywhere in the body of an organism, and in any amount, it simply depends on where it is carried. The cyanide that does not attach to any bonding sites will leave the body quickly, yes, but the cyanide that does not, simply sticks and stays. It can exist in any amount on any organ or body part - and can inhibit the correct function of that system - affecting the animal's function and lifespan accordingly. It can take a long time before you see any results due to the problem. Heart problems loom for months, maybe even years, before they jump out (see high blood pressure for example - high blood pressure is a problem, but you CAN live your whole life with it not affecting you much - or you can die from a heart attack triggered by high blood pressure). It essentially affects you after whatever amount of body imbalance has been inflicted by the cyanide.

Anyways - I doubt cyanide is the case in these situations. It would likely cause gradual deterioration over time as the fish were allowed to live so long seemingly unnafected, and yet pass so suddenly and dramatically. It sounds like another problem is the major player, and I doubt that cyanide problems like this would be so copperband specific.

Sorry, dont mean to spark any debates, just had to add a bit about the nature of cyanide.

Again, sorry to hear about your loss.

Chris

[Funky_Fish14]

*The body (of any animal) is so perfectly balanced that I bet most animals affected by cyanide never make it to the hobby tanks, the retail stores even. Those that do get affected and make it to retail tanks, have such little exposure, and probably were not even the targets of the cyanide use anyways. Its sad because it is such a destructive and innefective method of capture... start captive breeding instead... it would probably end up cheaper.... and much higher yielding.

[leezard]

Unfortunately its not rare and has spread to other countries now that were not known to use cyanide in the past

You are best off to get fish from Hawaii or Australia.

That's /really/ too bad to hear.

I hope by the time we have a bigger house and have room for a larger tank, there will be more captive bred species to choose from. I'm having a hard time with this idea, to the point that it makes me not want to deal with saltwater fish at all (stick with what I have, so to speak).

I can also see why this would spark such a huge debate.

I, for one, thank you for posting this info -- I've definitely learned alot from it, and probably wouldn't know any better for awhile longer.

[my2rotties]

Fine sit there and play the victim all you want...

You are the first to attack others for making mistakes or having poor judgement. Now you want a metal because you lost a fish and admitted to it. Was it not too long ago you had made a posyt about another copperband and said never again... Practice what you preach.

If anyone is going to lose it, that will be myself and many other that have held their tongues.

If the tests for cyanide are ridiculous then why did you ever make mention of them a long time ago. Are they ridiculous because they might prove otherwise? I know many people whom have kept these fish for a long time. They just keepo their mouths shut since they do not want the ridicule and to be called down for buying them in the first place.

I can tell you one thing for certain...

Stores will never stop stocking these fish, and people will never stop buying them...

Perhaps it is up to the hobbyists to find out exactly why they are dying so they can do something about it.Not much we can do about cyanide poisoning, but bacterial infections can and are treated. I think even stores don't really know if they have fish that have been cyanide caught, they tell me they would NEVER buy if they knew... so if my CBB dies, I will have her tested and if it is cyanide I will tell that store. At least I would be doing something proactive in this hobby to either get banned from the store, or damned well try to have changes made.

Fish do not just up and die for no reason... it is our responsibility as hobbyist to know why they just up and die "for no reason". Sitting there and trying a species repeatedly with no answer. You tried five, and have learned nothing more then from the very first one... Now you tell other not to try anymore.

Sorry but although you didn't want to hear about it, you are going to. You have never held back on anyone else when they didn't want to hear about it either.

Any one else that knows of a lab or knows people that work in a lab that can possibly test fish for cyanide or take necropsy please PM me. Its about time something proactive gets done about these types of deaths. Hobbyists need to know what is indeed happening. At least I would want to know. As much as GSP didn't want this thread to go this way, it had to go this way.

Although I am well aware about cyanide use, and after discovering it happened, I didn't even want to be in this hobby. I got beat up in the beginning due to my feelings about this very thing.

GSP I am sorry you did not want thing to go into the direction they now have went. However for you to say you tried five CBBs now (one just died two months ago on you), it is very highly hypocritical to tell others not to do so, just because they did not work for you. I have been to many reefers homes and these fish are alive and well for months to years in their tanks. Why you don't hear about them, is people with the bad luck coming forward and saying that they always die. The ones that have success with these fish just don't come forward in fear of being bashed for owning a red or yellow list fish...

[Phanman]

have you tried contacting the UofC or SAIT for your testing?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

...

[my2rotties]

Looking into to it now... probably will take a few days since I am not too sure where to start at this point.

Originally Posted by Phanman

have you tried contacting the UofC or SAIT for your testing?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Fine sit there and play the victim all you want...

You are the first to attack others for making mistakes or having poor judgement. Now you want a metal because you lost a fish and admitted to it. Was it not too long ago you had made a posyt about another copperband and said never again... Practice what you preach.

If anyone is going to lose it, that will be myself and many other that have held their tongues.

If the tests for cyanide are ridiculous then why did you ever make mention of them a long time ago. Are they ridiculous because they might prove otherwise? I know many people whom have kept these fish for a long time. They just keepo their mouths shut since they do not want the ridicule and to be called down for buying them in the first place.

I can tell you one thing for certain...

Stores will never stop stocking these fish, and people will never stop buying them...

Perhaps it is up to the hobbyists to find out exactly why they are dying so they can do something about it.Not much we can do about cyanide poisoning, but bacterial infections can and are treated. I think even stores don't really know if they have fish that have been cyanide caught, they tell me they would NEVER buy if they knew... so if my CBB dies, I will have her tested and if it is cyanide I will tell that store. At least I would be doing something proactive in this hobby to either get banned from the store, or damned well try to have changes made.

Fish do not just up and die for no reason... it is our responsibility as hobbyist to know why they just up and die "for no reason". Sitting there and trying a species repeatedly with no answer. You tried five, and have learned nothing more then from the very first one... Now you tell other not to try anymore.

Sorry but although you didn't want to hear about it, you are going to. You have never held back on anyone else when they didn't want to hear about it either.

Any one else that knows of a lab or knows people that work in a lab that can possibly test fish for cyanide or take necropsy please PM me. Its about time something proactive gets done about these types of deaths. Hobbyists need to know what is indeed happening. At least I would want to know. As much as GSP didn't want this thread to go this way, it had to go this way.

Although I am well aware about cyanide use, and after discovering it happened, I didn't even want to be in this hobby. I got beat up in the beginning due to my feelings about this very thing.

GSP I am sorry you did not want thing to go into the direction they now have went. However for you to say you tried five CBBs now (one just died two months ago on you), it is very highly hypocritical to tell others not to do so, just because they did not work for you. I have been to many reefers homes and these fish are alive and well for months to years in their tanks. Why you don't hear about them, is people with the bad luck coming forward and saying that they always die. The ones that have success with these fish just don't come forward in fear of being bashed for owning a red or yellow list fish...

When did I say not to? I said I don't think people should and that hopefully poeple don't have to learn how I did. I never said not to buy them. I tried again (as I said but you apparently missed) that I only tried again because I found one from a members tank. You really need to slow down and read.

How am sitting and playing victim? I had the intention of sharing the experience to educate people. Im not telling anyone what to do. I do not attack people as you say. I have no idea where you get this from other than perhaps your threads but honestly you drive me nuts. Talk about feeling sorry for yourself...

I have tried five over five years and have learned something. You can't just get it through your head that we don't have to have a reason to know its not the best choice. Im not the only running into this problem. Your comments would only be fair it this were just happening to me and my tank. Its not. Its a problem regardless of the cause.

Im sorry you take such issue with the way I have dealt with it and you shoudl hope I don't ever truly express my feelings about how you run your tank.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Mods can you please close this--the intention here has fallen very short for a few individuals and is getting way too off topic. This was never to be a cyanide discussion.