Prazipro reef safe?

subman · #1 03-05-2009, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my2rotties

We made mistakes and I can take the I told you so's. I have no intention of doing anything right at the moment until I figure out how to do things. We screwed up I admit it. It is hard to post about info and help knowing this, but it is not about my pride... it is about my fish.

Thanks for the input I need it.

I applaud you for this. It is one thing to make mistake but it is great when the mistakes are recognized and faced head on. I personally hate asking for help or admitting I made a mistake, but you put your fish ahead of your pride. I hope that everything works out for you.

Trigger Man · #2 03-05-2009, 05:15 AM

I think RC carries the medication if you are still looking for it. Good Luck with treatment.

Pansy-Paws · #3 03-05-2009, 05:25 AM

I would agree that the fluke diagnosis appears to match the evidence, could be a combination of a skin fluke (causing skin cloudiness and hemorrhaging) and a gill fluke (affecting breathing).

There are many different types of flukes (a fish disease book I have claims ~1500), most of which have a narrow host range in nature. This would explain why only your angelfish appear to have been affected.

I've had battles with flukes in the past, and they can be very resistant. As others have said, first of all, treatment in a QT is required. The use of a QT can also give you a range of treatment options, from the usual prolonged immersion treatment listed on the medicine bottles, or short-term baths (say 30 minutes to 3 hours) with more concentrated dosages of medications. I would recommend the book Fish Diseases by Edward Noga if you want to learn more about disease and treatment.

The effort to catch the Queen Angel for transfer to a QT, even if it means partially dismantling the tank, will give the fish the best chance. A word of caution on setting up a rush QT ... aim to do 25% water changes daily until the biological cycle is established, and really monitor the ammonia level (it can spike within a day and kill --- so have some de-toxifier on hand such as Amquel). Personally, I believe ammonia is the largest cause of death for fish in QT, from my own experience as well, unfortunately.

I would start with prazipro, and next go with formalin if the situation does not improve.

Flukes can double in as little as 24 hours ... good luck in saving the queen.

Trigger Man · #4 03-05-2009, 05:45 AM

If you are having a hard time catching your angel I find waiting a couple of hours after everything is sleeping makes everything easier to catch, as the fish tend to move a lot slower if at all. You will need to know where the angel hides out, and then you have a window of a couple of minutes before the fish gets back to being fully alert.

my2rotties · #5 03-05-2009, 06:06 AM

I just tried to get the angel... but he hides in a back corner under the rocks. I made so many hiding spots and caves in the tank, I really made things hard for myself... I'm going to RC to see about a fish traps and meds when they open in the morning. I am not looking forward to the next day or two while I try to make things right for the fish. It has been a challenging few days but I don't give up so easily. I just wish I knew what this was before hand. I was treating my fish for infections and ich when I caught the others... no wonder it didn't help. Thanks for all the help everyone, both on the forums and PMs. It is greatly appreciated.

Red Coral Aquariums · #6 03-05-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I'm going to RC to see about a fish traps and meds when they open in the morning.

Quarantine tank is definitely the way to go. Medicating your display tank is like (chemotherapy) you kill everything off hoping that the beneficial bacteria regenerates faster than the parasite. We do have medication for flukes. We also have fish traps for sale as the trap we lend out to customers for free is out at the moment. *Maybe talk to the Stores you purchased your fish from to see if they might have a fish trap to lend you.* I can see from your strong efforts and determination you are on your way to creating a healthy environment for your finned friends.

Kevin

my2rotties · #7 03-05-2009, 04:27 PM

When I started this system my biggest worries were water quality which is always fantastic and ich... I knew nothing about flukes and had difficulty in finding answers to the deaths of my fish. I spoke to two stores and was told the deaths were consistent with cyanide poisoning. However that is a very serious allegation to make so I researched and asked further questions about it. Now I have my answers. In many ways cyanide would have been easier to deal with since that would not be my fault and the problem would be solved...

Now I have a small disaster brewing but I'll get through it. Now I know about this parasite and wish I knew about it before.

When I am ready for new fish which is not happening for a VERY long time, I will medicate for flukes in the bag and while I acclimate them. I think I will stay away from angels although my dwarf angels are just fine. It seems my larger species angels have this parasite. Nobody else is ill or shows any signs of this menace.

I just need to know the life cycle of this parasite but what I have found it can be dormant for years. Now that it is in my tank it seems that I MUST treat the entire system or I will never be rid of it. I cannot remove all my rocks and coral to QT since they eggs can still be living on them at this point.

I think medicated food at this point for the entire tank is best and I will catch the sick fish and QT them... however if I put them back into the display they will get sick again... I really feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place right now.

See you in a couple of hours Kevin, I see the roads will be joyous for me to make the trip form Bragg...

As for the trap, I have no clue where the flukes came from... my bad for stocking the tank quickly. The store the dead angels came from heavily medicates the water to kill all disease so I really have my doubts they had it when they came home. I just don't know but I will be speaking with them tomorrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Coral Aquariums

Quarantine tank is definitely the way to go. Medicating your display tank is like (chemotherapy) you kill everything off hoping that the beneficial bacteria regenerates faster than the parasite. We do have medication for flukes. We also have fish traps for sale as the trap we lend out to customers for free is out at the moment. *Maybe talk to the Stores you purchased your fish from to see if they might have a fish trap to lend you.* I can see from your strong efforts and determination you are on your way to creating a healthy environment for your finned friends.

Kevin

Pansy-Paws · #8 03-06-2009, 04:21 AM

You asked about the life cycle of flukes, and here's what Dr. Noga says in his book:

There are two modes of reproduction used by flukes, some lays eggs and some give birth to living young. From what I read, a microscope would be needed to determine which type is present, and a PhD in marine biology

Flukes cannot survive more than 2 weeks without a host (except if present as over-wintering eggs) --- Dr. Noga doesn't say what conditions are required for egg laying flukes to start laying over-wintering eggs, but probably a PhD comes in handy on that question too.

The egg layers have a free-swimming larvae stage that may attach to any new host, while the live birth flukes need contact between fish to be spread as they remain on the same host throughout the reproductive cycle.

If your non-angels don't have a problem yet, hopefully that is an indication that the flukes are species specific and won't spread further. We had a fluke attack on our Annularis Angel last July (it had stopped eating by the time we got it into a QT), and no other fish in the display tank ever came down with symptoms.

We also think that the fluke episode triggered a thyroid tumor in the Annularis ... but that's another story. We managed to keep the Annularis alive with tube feeding until its appetite returned, and it's now happily back in the display tank. If you're interested, full details here:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic88860-10-1.aspx

Good luck with the flukes treatment ...

Pan · #9 03-05-2009, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pansy-Paws

I would agree that the fluke diagnosis appears to match the evidence, could be a combination of a skin fluke (causing skin cloudiness and hemorrhaging) and a gill fluke (affecting breathing).

There are many different types of flukes (a fish disease book I have claims ~1500), most of which have a narrow host range in nature. This would explain why only your angelfish appear to have been affected.

I've had battles with flukes in the past, and they can be very resistant. As others have said, first of all, treatment in a QT is required. The use of a QT can also give you a range of treatment options, from the usual prolonged immersion treatment listed on the medicine bottles, or short-term baths (say 30 minutes to 3 hours) with more concentrated dosages of medications. I would recommend the book Fish Diseases by Edward Noga if you want to learn more about disease and treatment.

The effort to catch the Queen Angel for transfer to a QT, even if it means partially dismantling the tank, will give the fish the best chance. A word of caution on setting up a rush QT ... aim to do 25% water changes daily until the biological cycle is established, and really monitor the ammonia level (it can spike within a day and kill --- so have some de-toxifier on hand such as Amquel). Personally, I believe ammonia is the largest cause of death for fish in QT, from my own experience as well, unfortunately.

I would start with prazipro, and next go with formalin if the situation does not improve.

Flukes can double in as little as 24 hours ... good luck in saving the queen.

There is no biological cycle in a proper quarantine tank....the medications that are effective will kill it off...sigh...hence the reason you don't use them in a display tank...among other reasons...if all you are doing is a hypo treatment then fine....pretty much everything else will effect the biological cycle also frequent water changes are a must always in a quarantine tank. Hence the cost of setting one up properly and why most don't. You need to keep the ammonia down with constant water changes as well as medication levels topped up to required levels. A qt tank is not simply another tank you put fish in and do nothing but look at them. It is for active medicating of fish...just as one would dip corals before you put them in a tank...(ask anyone who has had flatworms if they wished they'd dipped) a qt tank is like a prolonged dipping of fish. Pro-active is better then putting a fish in and simply looking at it...(albeit you must first suspect or see signs of a disease...there are a few catchall products that work quite well for use as a pro-active treatment..always better safe then sorry and if done right no harm to fish) but if you must wait to observe if there is anything wrong with the fish...this is quite acceptable, then so be it. I rather a fish die of an unknown in a qt tank then in my display. You really should medicate every fish you put in your tank...dogs need shots to travel between countries as do humans...is it a stretch to think fish do as well? Again don't worry about a biological cycle for a qt tank...it is simply a waste of your time, as if the fish has something you will more than likely kill it off when medicating.

my2rotties · #10 03-05-2009, 03:52 PM

One thing I cannot find is the life cycle of flukes. If I do remove all my fish to QT, how long will it take for my tank to go fallow? I know about ich and that was always my biggest fear and concern for my fish.

So... now I am where I am at, and have learned a lesson or two... I have no idea where the flukes came from and perhaps if I did things more slowly I would have not had these issues. Sadly I did not and it was at the cost of my fish's lives now. Losing money sucks but it is not about the money...

I am going to the city to grab some meds to put into the food until I can better set myself up to deal with this issue. Hopefully a fish trap will work for the fish I know have flukes and I can get them into QT. I will be making the 55g fuge into the QT tank and am able to cut it off and isolate it from my main water supply. Not ideal but it is all I have at this point to work with. I have a separate skimmer for it and will do my best for the fish if I can catch them. Good thing I have dozens of pails to remove the rock work to try to catch them.

So far that is all I have for a plan but I am sure Kevin will be able to help me out with advise when I get there today.

There is a saying "Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step". Well here is the first step that I am going to be taking. I know if I do panic I will make things worse.

I wish I knew how to recognize illness in fish prior to purchase but I guess that is why people do QT. Lesson learned. I bought many corals and live rock form tank shut downs, as well as fish... I do not know where the flukes came form and know I never will.

I do find the varying info quite confusing on what to decide to do at this point, since there are so many options. Picking the right one which is best for my fish is the hardest choice to make.