PFO LED lighting

[reeferaddict]

Originally Posted by Midknight

I totally agree with you Reeferaddict, but as G1GY says, will wait for at least 6 months and let other people reveiw it first.
Besides they will always drop in price after the first year when the "New & Improved" model comes out.

I couldn't agree more - even PFO says within a year these fixtures will actually cost LESS than a MH setup... I'm just excited about someone taking the plunge with this new technology that has been on the horizon for 3 years now... I will want to see results before I even think about ordering one... if you look at PFO's gallery, the display tank looks like nothing special.

Steve - LED's have no filaments to burn out, and run considerably cooler than HID, so it's not just the 40%, but also the other energy costs. During the warm months here I have both AC and the chiller, I get to watch my hydro meter spin around like it's getting ready for take off. As for the PAR values, they're all charted on PFO's site, and their tests show comparably with what they claim... I guess we'll have to wait for them to ship and people to use them for 6 months to a year before we can have any unbiased opinions based on real world testing. A 400W equivalent is in the works to be released later this year. As for the 10% replacement over the life of the fixture I guess only time will tell - but I DO remember the hype a couple of years back about "dead pixel" issues with LCD monitors and longevity issues with those which have since fallen by the wayside. I can't imagine a company putting a foot forward without having done its due diligence, and what could be a bigger nightmare for a company than to have problems as you have described? Having dealt with PFO directly before, I am confident that the stated life of the product is actually much less than the actual expected life. Most LED's are stated to have a 100,000 hour life expectancy. The one thing that IS of concern is their estimate that the fixtures will only retain 70% of it's PAR over the life of the product - whether this is caused by dead LED's or what have you... 30% light loss is something easily rectified by our standard fixtures of today...

[OCDP]

Originally Posted by reeferaddict

if you look at PFO's gallery, the display tank looks like nothing special.

I was thinking the same thing. Not only that but the picture quality blows. The least they could do is take some crisp, clear photos of the tanks and corals. Nonetheless, this is very interesting and I too am looking forward to seeing results.

[G1GY]

Another downfall I see is that "The LEDs can be set up for either a maximum color temperature of 20K or 12K at time of order.".

Whith Halides you can just buy a new bulb and make the change any time you want to.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by reeferaddict

Steve - LED's have no filaments to burn out, and run considerably cooler than HID, so it's not just the 40%, but also the other energy costs. During the warm months here I have both AC and the chiller, I get to watch my hydro meter spin around like it's getting ready for take off....

yes there will be some issues solved but don't throw away your chiller yet, the luxton stars and other high power LEDs do throw off a lot of heat. as you know a LEDs is a dioed and the product of light is heat. because the little 5mm LEDs produced so little light they also produced little heat, but the High power LEDs (1 to 5watt) do chuck out a bunch of heat. will it be less than a MH... yes but I wouldn't even try to guess if it will be 2/3s the amount or what.. what I do know is that if they put out the same amount of light (PAR doesn't matter) you are going to get the exact same amount of radiation heat from the light its self. Now power venting might take care of the heat from these or it might not, so when you buy one let us know.

Originally Posted by reeferaddict

As for the PAR values, they're all charted on PFO's site, and their tests show comparably with what they claim... ...

Can you send me a link, I looked for a while and didn't find anything.

[reeferaddict]

Maybe I overstated when I said PAR... and understandeably these guys are going to show off test results that PROMOTE their product to be sure...

http://www.solarisled.com/FAQTechnic...1/Default.aspx

http://www.solarisled.com/FAQTechnic...0/Default.aspx

http://www.solarisled.com/FAQTechnic...9/Default.aspx

Steve, read my posts - I did not say I was rushing out to buy one right away. I would like to see some real world tests before I go spend my kids college fund to have the latest fancy light over my aquarium. I have the greatest amount of respect for your knowledge and wisdom in particular, but if we don't embrace new technology, all of us would still be wondering why our 5th anemone in a year died under our NO flourescent lighting... I don't think we'll see landfills with mountains of chillers in them for quite some time, but this is exciting technology to me... maybe not tomorrow, but I think within 5 - 7 years we may all be looking back wondering how we managed our reefs with the technology we have today. If not with products like this then with products we haven't yet imagined... Even since I have entered the hobby, the technological advances have been staggering. If nobody is at least curious then we stagnate.

C1GY said,

"Another downfall I see is that "The LEDs can be set up for either a maximum color temperature of 20K or 12K at time of order.".

Whith Halides you can just buy a new bulb and make the change any time you want to."

My interpretation from PFO's literature is this...

You can buy a fixture with a maximum Kelvin rating of either 13 or 20K that have the same par value. When you adjust the Kelvin rating through the fancy computer controller, it dims or turns off some of the blue LED's making the fixture adjustable between 6500K and the maximum (13K or 20K), of the fixture. You LOSE PAR doing this obviously, but higher Kelvin bulbs typically have lower PAR ratings, so in effect this works in reverse. One thing you can't do is get a 20K bulb to fire like a 10K bulb and vice versa...

LED lighting is the way of the future without a shadow of a doubt. Highway and city crews have been converting traffic lights to LED for over 5 years now with good reason - energy savings, overall brightness, and by the time the LED's need to be changed, the people that originally installed them will most likely be dead. (Commercial traffic LED's are reported to have a 50 year life cycle - too bad they haven't been around for 50 years to test this ) Automakers are putting them in for exterior lights as well.

I think I'm gonna email PFO about a marketing job now... haha!

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by reeferaddict

Steve, read my posts - I did not say I was rushing out to buy one right away.

I know I was just trying to help you to make up your mind so you can stop by here on the way home with it and let me play with my measuring tools


I am sure some one will buy one then we can find out.. but I was talking to a certain person at a store and we think the cost of them is going to make them hard to sell. even if the PAR is as good as a proper MH set up the only people who will spend the money is the ones looking at giesman type setups where they are going to blow a few K on lights anyways.

Steve

[reeferaddict]

That's what I like about you Steve... you can take it almost as good as you give it... You're another one I want to consult a little with in planning my next project...

If I decide to jump on board at some time I'll let any of you see it in person..

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

will it be less than a MH... yes but I wouldn't even try to guess if it will be 2/3s the amount or what.. what I do know is that if they put out the same amount of light (PAR doesn't matter) you are going to get the exact same amount of radiation heat from the light its self.

Care to elaborate on that a bit? I think if you compare current flourecent technology to incandecent lights that statement is obviously incorrect. Never mind the differences with solid state lights. They're going to throw heat but nothing like a HID lamp.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Care to elaborate on that a bit? I think if you compare current flourecent technology to incandecent lights that statement is obviously incorrect. Never mind the differences with solid state lights. They're going to throw heat but nothing like a HID lamp.

because of the efficiency the will be less heat, but how much we don't know.. I do know the luxton stars get so hot they need a heat shield to prevent the LED from burning out and I can only imagine that a 5 watt version would need that also sense a 1 watt version does. so there will be heat thrown out. now sense they use 40% less energy then you are looking at a heat difference of 40% (at least) but how much of this was through the ballast? I would say 1/2 sense I know how hot my ballast get. light is radiation of energy which when comes in contact with a surface will change to heat, the question is how much. weather you have 250 watts of radiant light from a MH or 250 watts of radiant light from and LED it is still the same amount of energy (assuming 100% efficiency) and will have the exact warming effect. now I am only taking about the radiant component, not the convection or conduction types. Convection is the big one that we have a problem with in closed hoods but can be solved with power venting, but you can vent all you want and Radiant heating will not be affected.


so like I said before.. will it run cooler, probably... how much... don't know.

Steve

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

because of the efficiency the will be less heat, but how much we don't know.. I do know the luxton stars get so hot they need a heat shield to prevent the LED from burning out and I can only imagine that a 5 watt version would need that also sense a 1 watt version does. so there will be heat thrown out. now sense they use 40% less energy then you are looking at a heat difference of 40% (at least) but how much of this was through the ballast? I would say 1/2 sense I know how hot my ballast get. light is radiation of energy which when comes in contact with a surface will change to heat, the question is how much. weather you have 250 watts of radiant light from a MH or 250 watts of radiant light from and LED it is still the same amount of energy (assuming 100% efficiency) and will have the exact warming effect. now I am only taking about the radiant component, not the convection or conduction types. Convection is the big one that we have a problem with in closed hoods but can be solved with power venting, but you can vent all you want and Radiant heating will not be affected.


so like I said before.. will it run cooler, probably... how much... don't know.

Steve

You don't need heat sinks on luxeon stars because of the amount of heat they produce alone, you need it because of the amount heat it produces compared to the surface area of the device.

The radiant heat transferred by the photons striking a surface is not a significant concern and will almost completely be nullified by evaporation at the water's surface.

The amount of problem heat generated by lighting in aquariums will always be proportional of the efficiency of the light source and the water will be heated by convection. I don't care how many fans you put it a hood with two 150 watt HID lamps, the temperature in the hood will be significantly higher than ambient. Air is a shitty heat conductor and pushing it around with fans doesn't work very well. For example, this is why big transformers are submerged in oil.

Ideally you should be able to touch the surface of one of those LEDs at full power and not hurt yourself. I suspect that either PFO will manage to maintain that kind of surface temp or that the lamp life will suffer significantly. A hot LED is not a happy LED.