Supporting the LFS

[Moogled]

midgetwaiter has some good points. I feel that there's obviously much more to business than just prices.

Also, I need to mention that not everyone is as sensible when it comes to business techniques. I can think of at least 1 LFS that brings in tankbusters every second week while most of its customers want small fish only. Since alot of the big fish go unsold (not everyone has a 160 gallon tank), there is considerable loss and to compensate for that, the person has to markup fish at least 350%. (500% in some cases)

Now tell me---is that smart?

Bottom line: It sometimes boils down to how well a person can operate a business.

[Matt]

IBTL? Anyway, this is striaght economics. Retail space is expensive, QT is expensive (if they do it), losses during QT are real, must be factored in. Staff to answer your questions are expensive. Shipping can be expensive. Carrying stock and debt (really the same thing) is expensive. All of these costs are also borne by the coastal companies.

My family owned a FW LFS in Nova Scotia from '76 to '85. We purchased in bulk from the US, arranged "group orders" from drop shippers with other stores -- did everything we could to keep our costs low. We got grief from the 'local' suppliers (ironically the shame jive the LFS give us now) about killing their business. We somehow owed them something? We also re-wholesaled (after a small markup) our surplus stock to other LFS in the area. Our prices were the lowest in the area, and people came for miles to shop with us. We also went way out of our way to have interesting and rare fish: First Pacu, First red-tailed cat (a 15" monster), 12" oscars. Exotic African Cichlids (before they were so trendy). Arawana. Pirahhna (they were illegal, I think). Fish we couldn't sell, because nobody could afford them, but looked cool and drove trade in other spp. We earned their buisness that way. After all that, it was a good but surprisingly marginal business. It always made money, but it wasn't a money factory, by any means.

Edmonton's LFS are likely not money factories either. Thier costs most likely dictate their prices. Some managers will find ways of lowering their costs. Some companies just don't.

My opinion though, is the same as others have posted. It doesn't matter what they charge. They don't own my business. If I choose to buy in Vancouver or Calgary or only trade with others, and that causes their business to become untenable, they will adjust their model, or close. If enough people continue to support them, because they either see value, or aren't aware of their options, they will continue to survive, and we'll all continue to wonder how.

I support the LFS when necessary. Honestly, although I've only been in this hobby a bit more than a year, I've gotten -or heard- enough bad advice from the LFS to last a lifetime. I enjoy browsing, and will buy when the price is good or impulse overcomes me.

Matthew

[Invigor]

Originally Posted by Matt

My opinion though, is the same as others have posted. It doesn't matter what they charge. They don't own my business. If I choose to buy in Vancouver or Calgary or only trade with others, and that causes their business to become untenable, they will adjust their model, or close. If enough people continue to support them, because they either see value, or aren't aware of their options, they will continue to survive, and we'll all continue to wonder how.

I support the LFS when necessary. Honestly, although I've only been in this hobby a bit more than a year, I've gotten -or heard- enough bad advice from the LFS to last a lifetime. I enjoy browsing, and will buy when the price is good or impulse overcomes me.

I enjoy your post, I feel the same way.

[DanG]

It all comes down to the cost of doing business. Just because a yellow tang costs $4 for the LFS to buy, there's shipping and paperwork costs that get added in. Add to that the cost of having a suitable place to house the fish before it's sold, feeding it, possible meds, etc, etc. It goes on for ever.
I will definately support the local guy, but if he's blatantly trying to rip me off, then I won't buy anything from him.
I guess it's different because I've worked as a sales/purchasing manager for a computer store so I can take into account all the other costs associated with doing business.

[Invigor]

yea, but aren't places like J&L and ocean aquatics businesses too?

[Skimmerking]

Very well said everyone. let's look at some fish ok.
Say some one wants to buy a Leopard wrasse ok they retail for around $80 dollars well around here or more

So if a store buys one the price would be 5.60 US
and then they are chagred for shipping, duty, or what ever
taxes, and there 20% mark up and then you get your price.

now if you know the right people they will not mark up 20 % maybe 10% depending on the person too .but it will end up being the guy will mark up the most he can get away with.

THe reason is maybe he is the only store around and thinks he is the only one that can get it.. Pretty sad....

[TheReefGeek]

The cost of doing business in Edmonton is much cheaper than in Vancouver. For the fish business, shipping costs will be more, but overhead costs should make up for that.

Bottom line the extra shipping costs hold no weight, because it is cheaper for me to fly fish in from Vancouver to my house than to buy at the LFS, so the LFS here are marking up far more than just the extra shipping cost.

But it comes down to competition. They are free to charge prices that keep them in business. Whether they could generate more buiness at lower margins and make more $$$ overall is tough to say. But with high prices they don't get the same volume going through the shop, so they don't get as good a volume discount, which increase costs, so they have to markup more. A visious cycle that could eventually lead to too few customers willing to pay high prices, and the shop will go under.

Some vancouver retailers are obviously doing a great job at managing inventory, and have good purchasing skill and general business management skills, hats off to them.

[Beverly]

Long ago, I did a group buy of LR with 3-4 other reefers from an e-tailer. While the rock was nice looking, the shipment did not have the shapes and sizes of rocks I was looking for. Of course, I ended up curing and using the rock, but overall, I was dissatisfied with it even though it was half the price of lfs rock. Even though LR prices locally are absurdly high, imo, I still like to hand pick the rocks that go into my tanks. The satisfaction of having the right shapes and sizes of rock make up for the higher prices, at least to me.

The only fish I ever bought from an e-tailer were CB seahorses, with which I was very satisfied. However, the SH e-tailer was a small operator, and I spoke with the store's owner a few times before buying from him. He seemed to genuinely adore the animals in his care.

That said, I have been to LFSs in the city and found each of them lacking in one way or the other. I'm sure if I saw the fish in e-tailers' tanks, I would find each of them lacking in the same ways. Even though e-tailers may have significantly lower prices, I am unable to look at their tanks the way I can a lfs's tanks.

Before buying any fish from a lfs, I scope the place out over a period of weeks before buying fish from them. That way, I can observe over a period of time whether or not there may be disease in their banks of tanks, in which case, I will put off buying fish from them. When dealing with a lfs, I can also pick out the best looking fish if there are more than one of the species I'm interested in. For these benefits, I am willing to pay the premium prices LFSs ask.

I view buying corals the same way I view buying fish. With the exception of a small shipment of zoanthids I made two years ago, which I was not particularly impressed with, I do not buy corals from e-tailers. I like to look at corals in the tanks so I can choose the best looking ones from the variety the lfs has available. Granted, the lfs I usually deal with does not have many corals that I like or need, I am not so sure the corals from an e-tailer are that much better, though they may be.

With one lfs, I am able to buy some dry goods in bulk at prices pretty close to those from e-tailers. All I have to do is ask.

However, I had a recent large shipment of dry goods from an e-tailer, and plan to do another large shipment within a few weeks. And I'm ALWAYS in for a good salt group buy from either an e-tailer or lfs.

And, for the record, I am not a big consumer of fish or corals, anyway. I do not want or need to have the most unusual fish or corals in my tanks. As a matter of fact, I ridiculously understock my tanks with fish and corals compared to many tanks I have seen. For instance, in our 120g, most of the corals came to me as frags from other reefers, and I frag these corals from one place to another to fill in the spaces. The tank actually looks pretty good with these few soft corals grouped in various places throughout the tank. The three fish that live in the tank are all pretty good buddies. One of them will have an adult size of 5.5", so I keep in mind the eventual bioload this and the other fish in the tank will have on their glass box.

Low stocking levels suit me fine on so many levels....

First, I am not over utilizing wild fish or corals stocks from our oceans. I buy captive bred fish whenever possible, but, in all honesty, I do have more wild caught than CB fish.

Second, fewer fish makes maintenance so much easier and cheaper. I do not need skimmers or sumps on my tanks when I understock fish. The fish also have lots of room and not too many tankmates to deal with, lessening the chances of aggression overall.

Third is tied in with the second point, in that I do not have to be a heavy consumer of reefkeeping equipment. IMO, being a consumer of "stuff" of any kind isn't particularly environmentally friendly. Not having sumps, skimmers, special and expensive pumps to keep my tanks all going not only saves me money, but saves on the environment a bit. Yes, having a reef certainly does tax the environment in many ways. But I'm hoping the restraints I have on stocking my tanks lessens the impact I am personally having on the environment.

So, back to the lfs vs. e-tailers. I use them both for different reasons. If I can talk to a lfs and get close to e-tailer pricing on their products, I go with the lfs every time.

Cheers