omg... the Ich is back . What's the deal?!?!? I need help.

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by Bob_I

And if you get through the whole post, you will probably begin to wonder just how many snails could she have bought with the money she spent on equipment to track down that elusive, and possibly non existent snail eating worm.

Can't shut some people up, eh

boB,

Already had all that equipment on hand Must be some kind of reef freak... or something

There are very specific signs of the kind of worm that slimes snails to incapacitate, then eat them. Pic of dead snail covered in slime and detritus from the BB tank. Of particular note is the stray mucus with bits of detritus floating up from the snail shell into the water column. Had the presence of this worm confirmed by Dr. Ron over at RC, so I'm pretty confident, along with the following quote and my own observations, that we got a baddy in our 120g :



This quote is from http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rs/index.htm

Oenone are nocturnal predators on snails and clams, and perhaps some other animals. They appear to extend from their burrow, and as they approach their prey they apparently secrete some mucus that covers the prey. This mucus may simply smother the prey, or it may contain some venom or narcotizing agent. After the prey is immobilized the worm extends a proboscis from the bottom of the head into the mucus and the jaws grasp the body of the prey. The jaws may also cut the attachments of the body to any shells, or alternatively the mucus may contain an agent that chemically severs the attachment. In any case, the prey's body is ingested. When the aquarist investigates the scene the next morning, all that typically remains is an empty snail or clam shell covered in a blob of mucus. Not many other predatory animals in marine aquaria typically leave behind such remains, consequently a dead, empty, shell covered with mucus is considered to be good evidence of the presence of an Oenone.

Too bad this worm isn't out during the day when I'm awake to see it

[BCOrchidGuy]

Wild caught clowns are notoriously poor shippers, percs especially. Usually captive raised ones ship better but if they are shipped from the far ends of the earth and then sit on a loading bay in some back water hole and then get bounced around here and there and then dumped into a tank at a pet store that housed a fish that did have ICH well chances are you'll purchase a fish with a problem. QT a new fish, lower the salinity over a period, with in reason the slower the change the better as long as the fish is alright.
Are you sure these fish keep coming down with Ich, and not Brooklynella or especially Amyloodinium? Amyloodinium is extremely difficult to recognize until it becomes advanced. A six day treatment in a 1.011ppt specific gravity will most likely help. At this SG the cysts fail to encyst and excyst (hatch). The final thing you can try is a dip in praziquantel treated water, it's an anti parasitic, it is usually used for internal parasites but external parasites will most likely be killed off by the dip as well.

Doug

[vertex]

Thanks for everyone's posts, I've definitely learned a few new things about ich. I agree, its definitely stressful (to the fishkeeper) when this happens and I hope you end up with a healthy fish recovering on its own!

I had a ich problem recently myself; I just added a great Coral Beauty on the weekend and 24 hrs later it showed some signs of ich. It had as many as 20 tiny spots I guess. Long story short, I put it in the main tank (a 33 gallon reef, understocked so not a HUGE risk) directly after a slow 3 hr acclimation period. I have done this with all my livestock and never lost a thing. I DO have a QT standing by incase things get worse (but honestly I've never needed it in 8 months of reefing!!). Anyway, I cranked the temp to 86, got the new C.B eating and kept a close eye on maintaining pristine water parameters. Did small water changes and sucked out as much extra detritus and debris from the bottom as I could.

The C.B. now after 4 days shows NO signs of ich but I will definitely keep watching closely. All other fish(Scooter Blenny, Clown Goby, and Maroon Clown) show no signs either, What a relief!


I do have a couple questions about this whole process though and after reading the other posts here:

1. The coral beauty was litterally trying to swim straight up out of the bag almost the entire acclimation process. I assume trying to get air, but I had an airstone in the bag as it was dripped. I did not want to dump it in fast since the salinity in my tank was much higher! The fish was obviously stressed, so its no doubt it showed ich after getting in the main tank. Is this an oxygen problem or simply stress? Should a fish be moved quickly to higher salinity if it lookeds like it is severely stressed? I was debating just dropping it in the tank since it was litterally going crazy swimming up for over 2 hours!

2. It sounds like ich can hang around in the tank for a long time if the fish introduced it and it might come back? If I see no signs of ich for several months, can the fish really still be carrying it? There doesn't seem to be any way to erradicate a tank of ich then if it has ever had it before and you keep fish the whole time.

3. And finally, I have read a lot that people feed with garlic soaked food. Is this some fish store product you must use or is there some garlic extract at the local supermarket you can use? Is it harmful to feed all the fish with this even if they don't have ich?

Thanks for all the great help everyone!

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by vertex

I had a ich problem recently myself; I just added a great Coral Beauty on the weekend and 24 hrs later it showed some signs of ich. It had as many as 20 tiny spots I guess. Long story short, I put it in the main tank (a 33 gallon reef, understocked so not a HUGE risk) directly after a slow 3 hr acclimation period. I have done this with all my livestock and never lost a thing. I DO have a QT standing by incase things get worse (but honestly I've never needed it in 8 months of reefing!!). Anyway, I cranked the temp to 86, got the new C.B eating and kept a close eye on maintaining pristine water parameters.

OMG, you acclimated for 3 HOURS! That’s WAY to long! The signs that your Coral Beauty was showing you were severe stress and lack of oxygen, which you ignored.
The longer the organism has been in the bag, the greater the build-up carbon dioxide and other waste and this may affect other parameters, such as dissolved oxygen. He was running out of oxygen! HELP he was saying, HELP! You’ve been lucky not to lose a fish yet. But a larger fish (i.e. powder brown tang) uses much more oxygen; polluting the water it was in, creating ammonia, then you chance loosing the fish. This has happened to me. A powder brown I was acclimating didn’t even make it out of the bag. It went through a spasm and flipped on its side and dead. I was so in disbelieve. But it happens. Many factors to consider. The LFS water condition, the temp drop on the way home effecting temp, and many more factors.

How long should acclimation take? “Unless the water parameters are vastly different, for example a large difference in specific gravity, 30 to 60 minutes is all that is required for the majority of organisms to adjust to changes in conditions. The exception to this is the echinoderms: sea stars, brittle stars, crinoids, sea cucumbers and sea urchins. Echinoderms are generally intolerant of large changes in water properties, in particular salinity. It is necessary to take significantly longer to allow echinoderms to acclimate ”

Check out this site it will go more into detail. As a quote from the link above.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...climation.html

Also raising the temp to 86! My gawd that’s extreme! Its very hard on the fish and as mentioned before on this thread it does have pro’s and con’s. Regardless it just makes the cycle run faster, including the fish.

Originally Posted by vertex

The C.B. now after 4 days shows NO signs of ich but I will definitely keep watching closely. All other fish(Scooter Blenny, Clown Goby, and Maroon Clown) show no signs either, What a relief!

Of course your fish would not show signs visible signs of Ich after 4 days, the life cycle of the parasite can be drop off in 3-7 days. But the peak time is 4-5 days. Meaning the Ich cysts fall off the fish once the cysts mature & then they fall right on your rock or substrate and divide (multiply) and then look for a host (your fish) again. Knowing how the Ich life cycle works is KEY to understanding the stages it goes through and breaking them. Check out this web site for detailed info on the life cycle of Ich.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Originally Posted by vertex

It sounds like ich can hang around in the tank for a long time if the fish introduced it and it might come back? If I see no signs of ich for several months, can the fish really still be carrying it? There doesn't seem to be any way to erradicate a tank of ich then if it has ever had it before and you keep fish the whole time.

Again many factors already mentioned in this thread & debated. If you get an outbreak and you treat with proven methods of treatment, leaving main tank fallow and then quarantine EVERY new addition (includes inverts, corals, frags, etc.) then your tank will remain Ick free. As long as you don’t get impatient and do the gamble and just add that new addition without QT or treatment.

Originally Posted by vertex

3. And finally, I have read a lot that people feed with garlic soaked food. Is this some fish store product you must use or is there some garlic extract at the local supermarket you can use? Is it harmful to feed all the fish with this even if they don't have ich!

Some have their own recipe of garlic, I use a product you can get at BigAl’s or most LFS’s for about $11 bucks called “Garlic Extreme”, it by Kent. Great stuff and saves you the hassle of mixing or chopping up your own. Also is not harmful for your fish if their not infected, but think of it as an added booster. It’s said to act as some what of an immune booster for the fish. Garlic soaked foods for your fish also are used for fish that are finicky eater or are not eating.


Hope this answers all your questions.

[OCDP]

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

A quick update... last night I seen about 10 spots or so on each clown, maybe less on the male clown. Still are acting normal, no signs of stress YET. I did a water change on the tank when the spots were shown less on the clowns . I fed about 6 pinches of cyclopeeze to them yesterday as I didn't have a chance to get to the grocery store. Just trying to keep their bellies full. Will be grabbing garlic tonight.

[danny zubot]

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

I can't say if it will work or not but the link I posted on immunity led me to believe that fish can develope a defense against parasites. Which fish will actually succeed is unknown, but its definately worth trying. Nate at BA's says he feeds garlic as a weekly regiment to boost immunity, though there is no real scientic evidense to support the theory, it is claimed to work.

Lee, you seem to know a lot about fish desease, please check my new thread, I have a problem with Mr. Phooms.

[OCDP]

Interesting.. thanks Danny, just curious if anyone has some first hand experience with it... maybe I'll try RC and see if anyone has had any success.

Sorry to hear about Mr. Phooms

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by danny zubot

I can't say if it will work or not but the link I posted on immunity led me to believe that fish can develope a defense against parasites. Which fish will actually succeed is unknown, but its definately worth trying. Nate at BA's says he feeds garlic as a weekly regiment to boost immunity, though there is no real scientic evidense to support the theory, it is claimed to work.

Well said!

Originally Posted by danny zubot

Lee, you seem to know a lot about fish desease, please check my new thread, I have a problem with Mr. Phooms.

Hmm...don't seem to see a post on Mr. Phooms. Can you send me the link?

[danny zubot]

Its ready now

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17638

[OCDP]

Ok so I have been thinking, and IF possible.. with a talk with the rents... I will try to setup a QT for my fish... I just dont know where the tank will go.... I just need to have fish to look at, 6 weeks is too long.

So, if I choose to buy the supplies for QT, hoping I can do this cheap.. I am broke... what should I treat? hyposalinity? with a hydrometer? is that risky ? seems like it could be... and I definitely can't afford a refractometer (sp)

Or would I treat with meds?? Would I treat all the fish in my tank? Or just the clowns??

**Edit** : Also, I am going to BC next Thursday and will be back on the Monday, I won't be able to get the QT up and running and start treatment until then (if I can go through with this) ... will this be OK???? I am worried it might be too long, but then again.. if I can set it up, I can get them in there by Tuesday evening.