Possible zoa poisoning

[jason604]

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

[toytech]

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

[reefwars]

something seems odd here.....



i find it odd that a doctor will agree with you with no further tests?

i also find it odd that he said you were poisoned but showed you no proof id love to see what the doctor wrote for you if he wrote or did anything at all besides:

"I went to my doctor and he said I might have gotten slightly poisoned by ingesting the poison. He then told me If I were to ingest a higher amount I would only have had 90mins to get treated at the hospital ori would have died!!! Next time I'm not taking any chances with these things and will go to the hospital ASAP! Be careful with your zoas guys!!, don't take any risk and remember the most beautiful things in life can be the most deadly!"

if someone goes to a dotor showing symptoms of poisoning more than likely unless its a basement doctor they are going to push for further tests or to go to a facility who can accomodate the tests needed to verify the poison(toxin)

how does the doctor know it isnt contagious, lethal or something that could be viral? does the doctor have any info at all on the subject any references or experience with the toxin? highly doubt it which is all the more reason to suggest seeing someone more suited to this type of work.

werent you concerned? didnt you push for solid answers, maybe go to a lab and get tested?



the toxin in doses large enough to kill or hurt us is in P. heliodiscus or P. toxica which is still in circulation but p. toxica is no longer allowed to be collected, not sure if p.heliodiscus is or not but i imagine it is.

we are still unsure if any more species have it but the family is too large to tell for sure.

yes i agree always wear gloves fact is anything marine is foreign to our bodies not just toxin but theres other risks as well since we do not know alot about some of these wide spread species.

saying that my " zoas " have palytoxin will need to do much better....

and for the comment above about what does it matter well it matters.

why?


how can we limit collections, handling and restrictions on species if we cant weed out the serious, fake or mild experiences? how can we prepare general hospitals and doctors of such toxins if they can not be narrowed down? how can we do research on the toxic species if we do not know what they are?

yes it is hard to tell a zoanthus gigantus from a zoanthus sociatus or palythoas sp. or protopaly but its not impossible and there are distinct differences in the species like any other.


over all when dealing with marine animals all precautions shjould be taken after all we know very little about much of these animals.


glad your ok but i do not think palytoxin was the cause in this case , more probable is an allergic reaction or some other reaction.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0018235-t003



cheers

[jason604]

I made this thread to share my first time experience with zoa's toxins. I've seen for myself and heard of many people not use any protection at all while handling them and fragging them. From making this thread i want people to learn more and to take extreme precautions with this hobby and its danger.... Not for some individuals saying that im faking this **** or that i have a basement doctor... So retarded... Think what u want but dont say it like theres no problem with zoas and to just do w.e with them because theres no harm... Who knows mybe theres someone out there that may have prevented killing themselves by reading this?

[Proteus]

I'm not doubting you at all. I have handled lots of corals bare hands without issue. To me it's like peanut butter. Some people are affected some not.
In my other hobby (horticulture) there's a product called neem oil. Completely natural aids in eraticating spider mites. For years I used this product with no affect but now I have to where a filter mask and have lots of ventilation or no more breathing.

I think that some things affect people in different ways and your body can change to particular substances

[Dearth]

Originally Posted by jason604

I made this thread to share my first time experience with zoa's toxins. I've seen for myself and heard of many people not use any protection at all while handling them and fragging them. From making this thread i want people to learn more and to take extreme precautions with this hobby and its danger.... Not for some individuals saying that im faking this **** or that i have a basement doctor... So retarded... Think what u want but say it like theres no problem with zoas and to just do w.e with them because theres no harm... Who knows mybe theres someone out there that may have prevented killing themselves by reading this?

One thing you will learn is that no matter what forum you go to in the salt water world is that you will get every kind of reply under the sun especially when corals and toxins/poisons are involved. Everybody reacts differently to certain things I've handled and used sulferic acid(30%)for yrs in my job bare handed and all it does is tickle me yet I get a drop of hydrochloride acid(50%) on me it hurts immediately and is very painful yet one of my coworkers is the opposite he can handle hydrochloride acid(50%)no problem at all yet sulferic acid(30%) burns him right away.

Don't take it personally everybody has a different take on corals and their potential to be dangerous to handle some people are never affected by it others have reactions that can be mild to life threatening it could be the coral or a substance on it or even the rock/peg its attached to. It's always better to be safe than sorry

[Zoaelite]

Originally Posted by fishytime

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

Brought you back from the dead did I ?

Please note, at no time am I downplaying the need for protective gear when handling these species. Do some of these organisms contain the "Palytoxin" that ever one claims to be poisoned by? Yes.

Do all of them contain the toxin? No.

My point is this; there is a multitude of toxic compounds produced by ANY of the Cnidarians we keep in our tank take caution when handling or fragging any of these species.

I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

I see two out comes from people reading these threads; 1) Protect myself because this $hit is scary and could kill me BUT 2) Well if the other 400+ people posted that they were fine after a day of be poisoned hey this stuff isn't all that bad.

In REALITY its this second opinion that scares me to the bone, the guy who orally inhaled the toxin was on corticosteroids for over 5 months after the incident and he still wasn't getting better. You don't get poisoned by this stuff and wake up the next day right as rain, its the second most toxin non peptide substance on the planet.

To give you an idea, the MOST venomous snake toxin on the planet belongs to the sea snake Hydrophis Belcheri, its LD50 is 0.025 mg/kg. Palytoxin is about 80X more toxic than this (LD50 of 0.0003 mg/ kg), one gram of the substance can kill approximately 170 Million mice.

OP in no way am I down playing your situation, I just find it difficult to believe as I'm an overly skeptical duch3 bag .

Originally Posted by jason604

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

What your talking about is the act of bio-accumulation, some creatures are resistant to these toxins and actually ingest them to protect themselves. The rest of your statement perplexes me though, would you be so kind to post the source for this information.

Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong

I've posted a peer reviewed journal article which says otherwise, I would love to read your article though.

Originally Posted by toytech

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

^ Thank you, this is a statement I can really agree with.

[reefwars]

funny we posted the same article lol

[Zoaelite]

At the same time, about the same thing .

VOOOODOOO MAGIC!

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Brought you back from the dead did I ?
I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

nope Ive always been here lurking

I DID read the article and in his conclusions he clearly says, some species are highly toxic, some species are weakly toxic and some species are not toxic at all....to me I dont really care how many thousands of mice zoa or paly X could kill,....I care about the well being of my fellow reefers (hence the reason I started the "Marine Aquarium Cautions" thread) and to me, being a LFS employee for 5 years, that means just giving a broad spectrum warning to people about ALL zoanthids.... I couldnt tell anyone with 100% certainty which may or may not contain deadly level of the toxin so I will not accept the responsibility of claiming that I do know....thats what irked me about your statement....you have basically said that the zoas that the OP posted pics of "do not contain the toxin".... do you know with 100% certainty that this is true?....because thats a lot of responsibility for a statement that hundreds of people will read.....