What is your opinion on the hobby's status?

[sphelps]

While it's not a sustainable hobby it's not on the decline either. The hobby is growing, price increases are actually proof of that. As the hobby expands as does the the business that supports it. Many might be inclined to think as competition grows prices will come down but not when sustainability is low, ultimately there's limited supply thus growing demand drives prices up among other reasons already mentioned. Hardware however is different, the equipment market continues to grow with new products and innovations resulting in more supply and lower prices.

If people are noticing a resent decline consider the combination of summer months approaching and the effects of the economy from the energy sector. Things will definitely be slowing down as a result but it's a typical and a temporary decline, not really a sign of things to come.

I also shake my head every time I hear comments relating to the environmental impact and that the hobby's effect is minimal. First off if there are larger forces at play such as pollution, commercial fishing, deforestation and so forth then the effect this hobby plays is more substantial, not less. If reefs are already threatened then the addition of another threat has greater impact. Second if you've ever been around your LFS at shipment day then you've seen the countless boxes of wild caught specimens which arrive regularly. If you consider the thousands of retail locations around the world you'd be unwise to suggest this has little impact on the sensitive ecosystem supporting this business. I'm not suggesting everyone should quit the hobby, feel bad, or even give a flying ... But don't sit on a high horse cursing those larger forces which offer far greater benefit to society than your precious glass box of self-indulgence.

[jorjef]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Second if you've ever been around your LFS at shipment day then you've seen the countless boxes of wild caught specimens which arrive regularly. If you consider the thousands of retail locations around the world you'd be unwise to suggest this has little impact on the sensitive ecosystem supporting this business.

This comment I believe supports why we are seeing a lot of livestock way smaller then in the past...Few example Fungi plates, Aussie scolly's, some species of fish hippo, yellow tangs, blue green chromis, I saw a six line that I swear was a 1/2" long , maybe even clams.

If the collectors don't have the means or legally can't reach out to new collecting sites I would suggest due to demand the area they have historically collected from doesn't have time to produce the same sizes say... fungi or scollys we were use to in the past... Just a theory.

[gobytron]

I'm not sure those of you who say that our hobby is drop in the proverbial bucket have really done much research into just how destructive this hobby is.

It's well worth doing some looking into.

Don't just consider the depletion of fish and coral populations, but the massive amount of power that is used and consumed to enable us to enjoy them.

That being said, whether you believe we have a negative affect or not, ocean acidification is real and documented and speeding up.

Nobody knows better than we do what drastic fluctuations in PH means for living reefs.

[Scythanith]

Gobytron, please research what's more destructive, harvesting coral from the coral reefs, or harvesting coral reefs for the use in concrete production.

Honestly though any hobby has it's impact on the environment. Hikers wear gear made of synthetic materials that have toxic byproducts during construction. Standup Paddleboarders have foam and fiberglass boards. People who drive electric cars still roll on rubber tires and utilize chemically hazardous battery packs. Not to mention if they don't charge their batteries purely off of sustainable power sources they are hypocrites. The construction of solar panels is still pretty bad for the environment.

Am I saying we shouldn't be doing everything we can to lessen our footprint, not at all. But there is no perfect solution. I believe we are making an impact, but nothing compared to other industries. Think about this. How much energy does Wal-Mart use for their store lighting alone? Reefers are quick to adopt new technology. How many reefers switched to LED's to save on energy alone? What impact could Wal-Mart make if it switched to solar-tubes and LED's? Let alone the amount of bulbs they replace and add to the landfills a year.

Acidification of the oceans will change the game for sure. Like I always say, humanity may wreck the earth to the point we cannot exist on it anymore and we leave or go extinct. But the Earth will adapt, animals will evolve, and the blue marble will keep on spinning without us.

I love discussions like this

[Myka]

I don`t think the hobby is slowing down; I think it`s changing, as all things do. In the economy there are ups and downs and a few plateaus. Our hobby is usually a reflection of the economy, and it is different in each country. Our economy is challenged right now because of the strength of the US dollar right now. This too will change.

I think that people tend to notice when things are down more than they notice when things are up. Such as, this time of year people tend to move their interests outside so you see lots of tank shutdowns. Then you see threads like this.

Canada is on a bit of a down slope right now because of the US dollar, but in the US the hobby is as strong as everas shown by continuing increase in attendance at the various large trade shows like MACNA, Reefapalooza, MAX, Coral Con, etc.

Originally Posted by gobytron

Almost everything posted here is from a business perspective.

Mostly it is hobbyists trying to imagine a business perspective.

[Bayside Corals]

Originally Posted by jorjef

This comment I believe supports why we are seeing a lot of livestock way smaller then in the past...Few example Fungi plates, Aussie scolly's, some species of fish hippo, yellow tangs, blue green chromis, I saw a six line that I swear was a 1/2" long , maybe even clams.

If the collectors don't have the means or legally can't reach out to new collecting sites I would suggest due to demand the area they have historically collected from doesn't have time to produce the same sizes say... fungi or scollys we were use to in the past... Just a theory.

Smaller sized fish are ordered on purpose because that's what the majority of customers want. If someone is looking for larger fish just ask and they can be ordered. There are no shortage of Larger fish from the collectors. It's just a trend right now where most people either have smaller tanks so they want smaller fish or they have a larger tank but still want a small fish to watch them grow.

When it comes to corals the smaller sizes are due to them being fragged right from the collector so they can maximize profit. Or for the not easily fraggable corals like fungias and brain corals it all comes down to color. They collect only the colorfull corals no matter the size.

In the old days people wanted nice big corals to put in their big tanks (because nano tanks were impossible to keep or not widely known about) So they collected mostly medium to large sized corals but in every color including a large portion of brown corals. It was the size of the corals that used to matter and not as much the color.

Now most people don't care about the size to a point. They just want the newest craziest color possible. It's all about what the customers want. Trust me if customers wanted big brown/average colored corals we could make that happen. but that's not what most people want.

[gobytron]

Originally Posted by Scythanith

Gobytron, please research what's more destructive, harvesting coral from the coral reefs, or harvesting coral reefs for the use in concrete production.

Honestly though any hobby has it's impact on the environment. Hikers wear gear made of synthetic materials that have toxic byproducts during construction. Standup Paddleboarders have foam and fiberglass boards. People who drive electric cars still roll on rubber tires and utilize chemically hazardous battery packs. Not to mention if they don't charge their batteries purely off of sustainable power sources they are hypocrites. The construction of solar panels is still pretty bad for the environment.

Am I saying we shouldn't be doing everything we can to lessen our footprint, not at all. But there is no perfect solution. I believe we are making an impact, but nothing compared to other industries. Think about this. How much energy does Wal-Mart use for their store lighting alone? Reefers are quick to adopt new technology. How many reefers switched to LED's to save on energy alone? What impact could Wal-Mart make if it switched to solar-tubes and LED's? Let alone the amount of bulbs they replace and add to the landfills a year.

Acidification of the oceans will change the game for sure. Like I always say, humanity may wreck the earth to the point we cannot exist on it anymore and we leave or go extinct. But the Earth will adapt, animals will evolve, and the blue marble will keep on spinning without us.

I love discussions like this

No one is saying that the hobby is the worst out of all of the things humans do to kill their home.

You're missing the point here.

Sphelps probably said it best in his post above.

[saltcreep]

Originally Posted by sphelps

While it's not a sustainable hobby it's not on the decline either. The hobby is growing, price increases are actually proof of that.

I don't think that there is a direct correlation in prices and the strength of the hobby. I would argue the opposite in that as product becomes more expensive, it changes consumers' purchasing habits. There has also been a shift towards smaller tanks which will also impact the sales of livestock as less is required to fill a tank.

Yes this business is seasonal...that hasn't changed nor will it ever. My timeline horizon goes back years and in my opinion the hobby (from a business case) plateaued in 2008-2009. This also coincides with the downturn in the economy, from which I don't believe it has recovered despite what the government would tell you.

The internet has had an enormous affect on the industry and is effecting the smaller brick and mortar stores more than anything else. This will continue to suppress retail prices as, for the most part, an online retailer can only garner market share by offering cheap prices. These prices then are a gauge for the balance of the industry such as brick and mortar.

Those that are doing marines "half way" are getting crushed. This business approach no longer works. You have to go all in or don't bother. The number of stores that have closed or removed marines from their stores is staggering. Others still continue to wonder if it is worth carrying them. There are few that are doing well, but what I see overall is a great deal of consolidation where there are fewer players controlling a greater share of the market.

Originally Posted by Myka

Our economy is challenged right now because of the strength of the US dollar right now. This too will change.

That may also not be a true indicator of the hobby. My experience is that the hobby has been stronger even when the exchange was as high as $1.60+ CAD-USD.

As far as the environmental side of the issue, there are still huge issues facing the industry be it collection related or outside factors like climate change and pollution.

There will always be issues from a collection side as many of the countries that product is exported from do not have strong environmental standards. On the direct collection side, there are few areas with strong stock management plans. This will allow the over collection of fish on an ongoing basis. It is already being seen in the availability of some fish from certain countries. Collectors are having to travel further and further to find collection areas. Not to mention, there are still areas where cyanide use (or other alternative) is alive and well, despite what many would like to say.

Other factors such as pollution, deforestation, etc, all have a far greater impact than this hobby. But...the fact of the matter is that it is 100% impossible to justify removing fish from the world's reefs for our own amusement. This is something the industry struggles with greatly from an optics point of view. Critics will always point to this and say it's senseless.

The far greatest issue will be climate change and everything that comes with it. As the effects become greater and greater, the more pressure will be put on the reefs for conservation. There are vast areas now that are being protected. My opinion is that it is a matter of time before there are more and more areas that are protected thus reducing the availability of wild caught livestock. As everyone is aware, Hawaii is a great example of this.

So where do I see things going. I don't have a timeframe, but I wouldn't be surprised if the wild collection of coral for the trade is banned. There is enough cultured product on the market where it can be pointed that wild collection is not required. Fish, well, who knows other than to say that I can see more pressure on the fair collection and protection of the reefs. All to say it will squeeze the availability of product. Will culturing of fish fill the void, probably not for the average consumer.

I also see more consolidation in the industry. The trend will continue where more stores will continue to fall or not bother with marines.

But what do I know...it will be interesting to watch.

[lockrookie]

Originally Posted by jorjef

A trend I have started to notice and I'm not sure if it's driven by economics or supply is tiny fish.... Not as in gobies but 1 inch hippo tangs etc. That makes it tough if you want to add a fish to your display but realize with its size it would have a tough time surviving.



I love it when the LFS gets trade ins or surrendered fish due to tank shut down. I bought a giant Royal Gramma a few weeks back that was traded in. Didn't even blink at the wee over priced aspect, the size sold me. I also didn't mind paying a little extra for what I call tank tested fish. No guarantee but survival rate is way higher vs. newly arrived fish.

+1000

this is annoying me a lot lost three hippos thus far and it just doesn't seem right never mind the ones that don't even make it through the shipping process