Supporting the LFS

[howdy20012002]

Just wanted to say a couple of things..There is a link in one of the area forums and I think that this has something to do with me a bit.
IMO, what the LFS here in alberta charge for items, in the most part, is almost insulting.
This hobby is truly an amazing one. However, to take part of it in alberta you need a second job to support it. The reason i started bringing stuff in was because i couldn't afford to buy it here.
I mean a turbo snail costs 4.50 in a couple stores in Edmonton. I know that they have lots of overhead and such..but i don't know many places that get to place a 750 to 1000 percent mark up on items.
Maybe the local stores really need to take a look at why it is that we can place orders from places in BC and with the shipping charges included and yet we still end end up saving money.
I know that myself, if the local stores came even somewhat close to being the same prices, i would definitely support them verses buying elsewhere.
However, they aren't. In alot of cases they are infact double what the items cost from one province over. Which is why i buy from there verses here.
I am all for supporting the Local stores....However, they need to look at the prices they are charging and stop insulting us by the highly inflated prices.
Just think, if this hobby became more affordable for everyone....maybe more people might do it......then maybe the stores would have more customers buying more stuff....thus making them more money. This should not be a hobby of the elite or wealthy.
I dunno know what everyone else thinks, but IMO, you shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage on a house to buy a few snails. Especially when they are available for much much less elsewhere with no real reason to justify the huge increase in prices.. It doesn't cost that much more to fly to Edmonton verses Vancover.
What it boils down to is the local stores have had a monopoly on the market...with no real competition...
well, I for one am saying, until they start supporting us, i have a hard time supporting them.
But that is just me.
I would love to hear comments on this both good and bad. I know there are lots of people out there that support what i am doing, and lots of people that don't.

By the way...please dont turn this into a trash individual stores forum.....All that will to happen then is one of the moderators will lock this discussion and it will go into the nether regions to be never seen again.
Lets use it to come up with useful discussions on both sides of the fence. Maybe we can actually have some of the LFS take notice to what is being said.

Neal

[G1GY]

Sorry man, but this will happen soon in all likelyhood anyhow.

Originally Posted by howdy20012002

All that will to happen then is one of the moderators will lock this discussion and it will go into the nether regions to be never seen again.
Neal

I think this thread will not live a very long and productive life.

Most of us wouldn't even be able to make an honest case either way. We will see things as a consumer does no matter what.

Some others may look at this thread as an of advertisement of sorts. (I'm not too sure how people are going to take this.)

This could also make other vendors pull the pin on sponsorship here.

I'll be checking back to read this thread for sure though.

[AndyL]

You know we've got some wonderful stores in alberta, but yes - some of the markups are ridiculous.

I don't actually mind the markups some stores charge, if they stock the necessities, and keep a good selection I'm happy to support them. Of course there are limits...

Unfortunately with the passing of BA's, calgary's got no real source for a cleanup crew. Sure the local stores bring them in occasionally, but on an average day, try to go buy some snails/hermits - not many to be found.

[Murminator]

I "WILL" support local stores if they were more resonably prices. When you do you homework and shop around you almost say WTF. I have to almost bite my lip when I go into a store and there is people purchasing items and I see the prices. I must confess that I do buy softy frags from retailers but thats about it $10-15. LPS $32.99 perhead little deal for mutiple heads SPS 64.99 frag I do love going to these stores "to have a look"
Is our forum that small that the local retailers can lose our business? Cannot they see the extent and risk we are will to take to do group orders? We buy livestock sight unseen !!. I know I would perfer to look over my livestock before purchasing but to save 50-75% I'll take my risks. A local store was selling bangaii's for $64.99 (I have see them as low as $45) and a Vancouver area store sells them for $24.99 now what would any of us do? Support the local guy? or have them shipped? Sometimes I dunno whether to laugh or cry. I guess we are going to have to wait until the locals what to start to take on the online vendors.
I do know this thread will probably not last long I know it sounds like bashing but I think the intent is vent our concerns(maybe the right people will be reading) and to reasure ourselves what we believe in is right so with this said......
RIP Thread

[AndyL]

I feel like ranting some more...

Just why is it certain shops think that we have no idea what they pay for livestock? 2 weeks ago I had a shop telling me how expensive a fish was, but yet, I can look on various wholesalers price lists, transshipers price lists, and exporters price lists, and see that it's priced the same by species - but they wanted 80$, not 40$ like the other members of that species that arrived with that shipment. Needless to say, I haven't gone back to that retailer since, and won't in the future.

Wholesale pricing isn't secret, it only takes minutes online looking in the right places to find out what the real price was (albeit, not including shipping, permits etc). Why even risk ****ing off a customer simply for a few extra dollars on a single animal? Yes there is some supply/demand at work, but doubling the price simply because someone asked "how much?"?

[Pan]

It basically goes down to people buy from the people they can afford....for instance how many people shop at a store for something they can get at walmart for cheaper....why do you think places like walmart make money...great service? nope people (the avg.) go where it is the cheapest....

unfortunatly for most people (i said most, not all) only rich people can have ideals, the rest of us do what we can....
take that anyway you like, i go where i can afford to. Wherever that may be, being on a limited budget I feel this crunch more than most. I have shopped at at Big Als and AI (No local reefers, but that is changing when the tank cycles again) Jlaquatics, oceanaquatics etc. I generally decide what I want, then look for the best price. I don't owe anyone my business, they earn it...wether it's by prices, service, support etc. Everyone has there own ideals, you can't drag people through the mud for sticking to them, even if they are 180 from yours

So with that do what thou willt, shall be the whole of the ...
Egad i'm quoting crowley...sheesh

And remeber, most "Business's" Are out there to make money, not friends... spend 2 minutes in the business wing of the university...you'll see what i mean.

Again..not all....just most....

[howdy20012002]

I have no problem with a business earning money
I own my own business(not selling inverts either)..and well..that is why most businesses are started..to make money
However, it would appear that some stores unjustifibly mark up their prices to high amounts.
Obviously the stores in BC make money as well, at half the price of things here and like i said previously, it don't cost that much more to go one more province in delivery charges.
I guess this is my 2nd two cents
Neal

[midgetwaiter]

Okay well I do work occasionally at a local retailer so I have a pretty good idea why some of this happens.

First, a store is expensive. You need staff and space and utilities and all that stuff. Retail space in Calgary for example is INSANELY EXPENSIVE. $60 / square foot is not unheard of. Basically you need to do a 70% to 80% markup to cover your overhead, minimum.

When you consider the scale most local retailers work at as well you can see where they can't really compete with larger online vendors or stores with bigger markets. When you buy in quantity you get a better deal but what is one of our local shops going to do with 80 mag 7s. It will take forever to recover that kind of capital.

Often you will see retailers push larger margins onto small items like snails. Like it or not, it's the way retial businesses work. Ask Future Shop how much they make on batteries or Safeway about laundry soap. Way back when I worked in a retail computer store I almost fell over when they told me how much they marked up printer cables. Small "sure sale" items always get padded. It's the economics of the business.

Also, it is tons more expensive to get dry goos here compared to somepalce like Vancouver. Most of this stuff comes out of Asia and Vancouver is a major pacific port. Cargo flights are also more expensive, most of the livestock you see for sale here comes though either Vancouver or Los Angeles. Manilla to Calgary direct flights are VERY rare. You see that extra shipping expense at the till.

A retialer is also aking a risk on livestock that youre are usually not. Some things ship poorly and airlines will regularly screw up your life. Those losses have to be covered.

I'm not saying that here isn't profiteering going on sometimes. Every once in a while I'll look at something and wonder too. There are a couple places that I find rather amusing most of the time but I shouldn't say where.

I just don't think it's as bad as people seem to think it is. How many LFS owners in this province drive BMWs? Nobody ever got rich owning a fish store.

[Moogled]

midgetwaiter has some good points. I feel that there's obviously much more to business than just prices.

Also, I need to mention that not everyone is as sensible when it comes to business techniques. I can think of at least 1 LFS that brings in tankbusters every second week while most of its customers want small fish only. Since alot of the big fish go unsold (not everyone has a 160 gallon tank), there is considerable loss and to compensate for that, the person has to markup fish at least 350%. (500% in some cases)

Now tell me---is that smart?

Bottom line: It sometimes boils down to how well a person can operate a business.

[Matt]

IBTL? Anyway, this is striaght economics. Retail space is expensive, QT is expensive (if they do it), losses during QT are real, must be factored in. Staff to answer your questions are expensive. Shipping can be expensive. Carrying stock and debt (really the same thing) is expensive. All of these costs are also borne by the coastal companies.

My family owned a FW LFS in Nova Scotia from '76 to '85. We purchased in bulk from the US, arranged "group orders" from drop shippers with other stores -- did everything we could to keep our costs low. We got grief from the 'local' suppliers (ironically the shame jive the LFS give us now) about killing their business. We somehow owed them something? We also re-wholesaled (after a small markup) our surplus stock to other LFS in the area. Our prices were the lowest in the area, and people came for miles to shop with us. We also went way out of our way to have interesting and rare fish: First Pacu, First red-tailed cat (a 15" monster), 12" oscars. Exotic African Cichlids (before they were so trendy). Arawana. Pirahhna (they were illegal, I think). Fish we couldn't sell, because nobody could afford them, but looked cool and drove trade in other spp. We earned their buisness that way. After all that, it was a good but surprisingly marginal business. It always made money, but it wasn't a money factory, by any means.

Edmonton's LFS are likely not money factories either. Thier costs most likely dictate their prices. Some managers will find ways of lowering their costs. Some companies just don't.

My opinion though, is the same as others have posted. It doesn't matter what they charge. They don't own my business. If I choose to buy in Vancouver or Calgary or only trade with others, and that causes their business to become untenable, they will adjust their model, or close. If enough people continue to support them, because they either see value, or aren't aware of their options, they will continue to survive, and we'll all continue to wonder how.

I support the LFS when necessary. Honestly, although I've only been in this hobby a bit more than a year, I've gotten -or heard- enough bad advice from the LFS to last a lifetime. I enjoy browsing, and will buy when the price is good or impulse overcomes me.

Matthew