Why balling properly is so important

[reefermadness]

How can it be SO important if I can get world class results and an RCTOTM after over 5 yrs of regular 2 part use. And I was adding a lot more than the average user would.

Maybe the true balling. system is a better way but it won't make or break your system.

[Aqua-Digital]

what every one forgets is that 2 parts and 3 parts are just cut down versions of natures way of doing it properly ie true balling. what are you trying to prove by cutting away at the proper way of doing something,

Yes running your car on half flat tyres will get you home but that does not mean its the right way to get home.

the questions are why make short cuts in an environment you are trying to replicate in nature? You may argue cost, well you are happy to spend $$$$ in trying to keep your new delicate species alive so why risk it with something that goes against the fundamentals of simple reef chemistry?

second is, yes there are some tank that look good on 2 part but there are also many tanks that were doing good and switched too the proper method and then did even better.

Lots of the great tanks show great photos rarely do they report the struggles. Its only coming to light now with proper education that short cuts are not needed and doing it properly reaps the benefits for those that wish not to argue with natures way.

Old saying you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.!!

We can all post fancy photos of corals until the cows come home but that does mean the system used is working to produce those colours, neither does it re write basic science. I can spend all day showing off colourful frags, but lets talk about the real reasons you should use the proper system.... TANK HEALTH, doing what is required in nature to provide the best environment for your system long term.

This is about doing it properly, doing it right, giving your system the best chance to work in harmony. Yes tanks do ok on other systems but is doing ok enough? Are you prepared too continue breaking the fundamentals of reef science when there is a system out there that does it as it should be done? what is there to gain from cutting this corner? I have read posts about fighting commercialism, any system is commercial even 2 part you still have to buy something to follow 2 part.

Balling is NOT about colouration thats only part of the story its about growth, health, long term balance.

There is nothing to gain by not doing it properly.

[reefermadness]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

what every one forgets is that 2 parts and 3 parts are just cut down versions of natures way of doing it properly ie true balling.

Since when is adding synthetic chemicals natures way of doing it properly (or at all)? Nothing we do in this hobby is natures way. We can't replicate it. A bit off topic.

what are you trying to prove by cutting away at the proper way of doing something,

Not trying to prove anything, just trying to have a beautiful, thriving reef aquarium. The "proper way" is simply your opinion. Does the proper way mean there is only one way?

Yes running your car on half flat tyres will get you home but that does not mean its the right way to get home.

huh, not sure Im following. I thought we were discussing aquarium dosing methods.

the questions are why make short cuts in an environment you are trying to replicate in nature? You may argue cost, well you are happy to spend $$$$ in trying to keep your new delicate species alive so why risk it with something that goes against the fundamentals of simple reef chemistry?

I think you may be overstating the risks (which is why Im getting involved) or if there is a risk at all. Again I surely did not see any obvious negative effect.

second is, yes there are some tank that look good on 2 part but there are also many tanks that were doing good and switched too the proper method and then did even better.

Lots of the great tanks show great photos rarely do they report the struggles. Its only coming to light now with proper education that short cuts are not needed and doing it properly reaps the benefits for those that wish not to argue with natures way.

Struggles of what? My tank was probably 90% grown from frags, healthy for many years straight. Im not going to argue that it was 2 part dosing alone that did this, just like I wouldnt argue if something went wrong that it was the cause. The problem with people making hard line statments that say only this way works is that people who do have problems go looking for answers and listen to these arguments. Ultimately this confuses them into changes that wont solve their problem.

Oh and nature again?

We can all post fancy photos of corals until the cows come home but that does mean the system used is working to produce those colours

So now you are questioning whether or not I'm telling the truth?

neither does it re write basic science.

Please show me these studies that show how these levels get elevated and/or depleted and the negative effects on corals because if that is the case Im not sure why my system had stayed so healthy for so long. Plus countless other personal friends and friends on forums who use simply 2 part as well.

I can spend all day showing off colourful frags,

Hey I like pictures, but lets see some colourful colonies grown from frags instead.

but lets talk about the real reasons you should use the proper system.... TANK HEALTH, doing what is required in nature to provide the best environment for your system long term.

Maybe in the 6th year my tank would have fallen apart?

This is about doing it properly, doing it right, giving your system the best chance to work in harmony Yes tanks do ok on other systems but is doing ok enough? Are you prepared too continue breaking the fundamentals of reef science when there is a system out there that does it as it should be done?

Why such a staunch hard line on the subject. I really wouldnt be taking you to task if you didnt draw such a hard line on the subject. Firstly my tank was far beyond average or OK by any normal hobbyist standard. I was completely satisfied (and sometimes amazed) by the performance, health, colour etc. Doing it "as it should be done" is your opinion.

what is there to gain from cutting this corner? I have read posts about fighting commercialism, any system is commercial even 2 part you still have to buy something to follow 2 part.

Im not fighting commercialism. Im simply doing what anyone does with any purchase. You do a cost benefit analysis. Just like I know that a bubble king skimmer would have been a better skimmer, I didnt purchase one. Why, well because of budget constraints and fact that the bubble king skimmer did not guarantee me better results over all with my tank. There are lots of great tanks not running the "best" possible equipment.

Now I will say chemistry is a little different. But nothing I've seen or experienced made me believe that I NEEDED to do a full balling system in order to have a gorgeous, thriving reef tank. Many TOTM's have ran ordinary 2 or 3 part systems.

FYI, I also have only used Instant Ocean. [gasp]

Balling is NOT about colouration thats only part of the story its about growth, health, long term balance.

There is nothing to gain by not doing it properly.

There might not be anything to gain by not doing a full balling system but there might be anything to gain by doing it either.

[Aqua-Digital]

As I said you cna take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

You say "the proper way" is my opinion, again its not my opinion its simple chemistry, You cant defy that fact. Its NOT an opinion, its natural science.

You are not showing any reason why NOT to do it.

TM Balling as developed by Hans Werner Balling is without argument the correct way to keep up with minerals of you tank. If you feel using a cut down method gains you some benefit over this than go for it. But for those that do believe in doing it properly the CORRECT system is available

I cant argue with someone that feels taking short cuts is the right way

Bottom line until you try it you wont know. You can argue as a non user with every corner but the fact still remains, YOU DONT KNOW.

You also cant argue Hans Werner, if it had no requirement it would not be the biggest selling system in Europe and now catching on fast in the USA. It just took education to get the reasons for doing it right across.

You should have joined the webinar I think your eyes would have been very pleasantly opened. I know more than one that joined the series as against i as you and now are using it.

[reefermadness]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

As I said you cna take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

You say "the proper way" is my opinion, again its not my opinion its simple chemistry, You cant defy that fact. Its NOT an opinion, its natural science.

You are not showing any reason why NOT to do it.

TM Balling as developed by Hans Werner Balling is without argument the correct way to keep up with minerals of you tank. If you feel using a cut down method gains you some benefit over this than go for it. But for those that do believe in doing it properly the CORRECT system is available

I cant argue with someone that feels taking short cuts is the right way

Bottom line until you try it you wont know. You can argue as a non user with every corner but the fact still remains, YOU DONT KNOW.

You are right, Im not showing any reason NOT to do it. I never stated any and wasnt trying to make a case for that at all. If anything there would be reasons to do it. Im just not sure that it makes enough or any difference.

The only reason I chose to speak up was because of your language and the way you made it seem like you are doing it wrong if you dont do it and that you wont get good results. My experience goes to the contrary of this.

You like metaphors so here is one. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Seriak]

Aqua is in the business of selling products. He has made a great sales pitch on why to buy the product he is selling. It's our job to research his pitch against the known facts. Pure and simple. I personally have had great success with 2-part. Would I have better success with Ballling? Maybe, but at this time, it's not worth the added cost.

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by Seriak

Aqua is in the business of selling products. He has made a great sales pitch on why to buy the product he is selling. It's our job to research his pitch against the known facts. Pure and simple. I personally have had great success with 2-part. Would I have better success with Ballling? Maybe, but at this time, it's not worth the added cost.

I appreciate the post, thanks

Think about adding just Part C to your system then thats all you have to do. There is nothing different in TM A and B which is sodium and calcium other than being lab grade pure and certified. People opt to use the whole TM system as they feel more secure knowing it is proven and tested pure. But if thats not a concern then go with TM part C only and add the third stage to your system.

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by reefermadness

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

But there is only one way of doing it right, proven science

Ok lets break this down

your corals remove the carbonate and calcium from the 2 part leaving you with "sodium chloride"

so now you have extra sodium chloride in you system an imbalance which cant be balanced by water changes as shown before.

You can keep doing your 2 part nobody is saying you cant but to address the chemical imbalance you need to add the NACL, not any NACL as that does not achieve much but NACL that has all the 70 trace elements.

So keep doing your 2 part, just think about adding Part C to the mix to create the right balance.

I am quite sure that would be very advantageous.

Part C is also not 3 part as sold which adds magnesium only! Part C in the TM original system is everything you find in sea salt but with the sodium chloride removed as you already have that in your system you are trying to balance.

So by adding TM NACL (part C) you create the balance.

Nobody says you have to buy the whole of A and B if you really are so against it, use your own, its the part C that matters

[reeferfulton]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

But there is only one way of doing it right, proven science

statements like this is what starts these arguments. . I wish that this hobby was as black and white as this statement .. Then everyone would have beautiful tanks and we would all be running them exactly the same..

But there is more then one way to skin a cat . and more then one way to have healthy beautiful corals .
I mean the amount of amazing tanks running driveway deicer , baking soda .. And forbid me for saying .. cheapo IO salt I have seen is enough proof for me.

Maybe I to am just tired of the way this product is being marketed. If i have to read another Hans-warner balling is the only right way thread again I may just have to close my account ...

Does a calcium reactor then also not cause an imbalance ? surely there is not all 70 trace elements in that media ..

[reeferfulton]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

So by adding TM NACL (part C) you create the balance.

furthermore .
Is there any studies done to show whether or not the imbalance actually has any ill effects on coral ? sure , even if the chemical science behind it shows how an imbalance can happen on paper .. Does it really even matter to the coral ?
somehow i doubt it