Approaching total coral wipe-out

[Magickiwi]

[quote=kien;884709]

Originally Posted by Magickiwi

I thought we were talking about trash bins from CTire ? Doesn't that mean we are trash talking ??

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week.

Remember to tip your server and take a taxi if you've been drinking. And I'm really starting to think the drinking is a good idea...

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

Yes please.

[Wheelman76]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

I want to drill a little into this. I can't remember if you mentioned this already, so if you did sorry for asking again, but ... apart from the readings, what are you doing for PO4 control? Are you using GFO, if so, how much, and how often are you changing it out?

The reason I ask is that I use the same Hanna tester for PO4. The tested results always show nominal values for PO4 in the end (the Hanna ULR tester reports in ppb of P, to convert to PO4 you have to divide the reading by 1000 and then multiply by 3.0666) but even so, I notice problems with SPS when I let my GFO get too old.

As far as PO4 goes, I am absolutely convinced of 2 things:
1) Most SPS problems we see and especially those that we can't easily rationalize away to something else .... are usually PO4 related.
2) Testing for PO4 is just something we do to make ourselves busy but the results are meaningless. You might as well dip your finger in the tank, taste it, then emphatically state the first random number that comes to your mind. (It's important that you state it emphatically, otherwise you have to do the test again.)

It might not be THAT bad but OTOH, I think it's closer to the truth than we'd care to admit. I think it's getting into the territory of inorganic phosphate versus organic phosphate and how our test kits and testers can only give you readings of one of those (I forget which), but the SPS are inhibited by the one we can't test (we just hope that if we test for one, that the other is going to be reasonably close).

I notice a definite correlation in how well my corals are doing if I change out my GFO every week, versus at slower change out intervals. Unfortunately the cost of GFO and especially at my tank size (280g) it is quite cost prohibitive to be changing it out every week, so this is something I tend to get an "opportunity" to observe repeatedly. If I get all gung-ho and change it out every week, my SPS grows well. If I don't then .. not only do they not grow well, many will recede or let go altogether. It can be as little as letting it go one or two extra weeks between changing out my GFO.

And yet, the Hanna tester will repeatedly tell me that PO4 is not a concern because it will be 0.02 or something so low that it's in the "it can't be PO4 that is the problem" category. But like I said, I'm convinced that it probably is to blame for a large majority of otherwise-unexplainable SPS problems seen in the hobby.

Not arguing with you about po4 levels , and I change my gfo every month and my Hanna checker always reads less than 0.02. But here is an interesting article for everyone to read on the subject of po4.

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/r...phosphate.html

[cuz]

any updates?

[asylumdown]

The only update I have is that I'm probably done with reefing. I've lost about a third of my colonies, the rest are on their way. Even the few that seemed to have avoided the initial round of damage are now falling apart. Cyano has taken hold everywhere dead skeletons are exposed, and the tank generally looks like garbage.

I was never able to do a 100% water change, I'm just not set up to do that logistically. Starting today I'll be doing 50 gallon water changes every day until I've replaced the total tank volume 3 times over. I don't know what else to do.

I can't make sense of my test results. When this started, my alk spiked up past 9. I thought maybe that was why the tips were burning, though now I think it was a symptom, not a cause. I reduced the rate at which I dose alk solution by 40% over the next couple of weeks and my alk has stabilized at exactly 8. However, my calcium simply will not budge. One of the changes that preceded this carnage was a switch to bulk calcium that I picked up from Eli. I'm now dosing 180 ml of that dissolved at 1 cup/gallon day, which is 20ml more per day than I was dosing when my tank was robust, healthy, and growing rapidly, but the calcium levels won't move above 355ppm.

Mag is 1300.

So, while these levels aren't perfect, an alk of 8, calcium of 355, and mag of 1300 should not also equal this much carnage. Even a swing of alk from 7 to 9 or 9 to 8 shouldn't be enough to slow motion kill an entire aquarium.

Originally Posted by Delphinus

I want to drill a little into this. I can't remember if you mentioned this already, so if you did sorry for asking again, but ... apart from the readings, what are you doing for PO4 control? Are you using GFO, if so, how much, and how often are you changing it out?

The reason I ask is that I use the same Hanna tester for PO4. The tested results always show nominal values for PO4 in the end (the Hanna ULR tester reports in ppb of P, to convert to PO4 you have to divide the reading by 1000 and then multiply by 3.0666) but even so, I notice problems with SPS when I let my GFO get too old.

As far as PO4 goes, I am absolutely convinced of 2 things:
1) Most SPS problems we see and especially those that we can't easily rationalize away to something else .... are usually PO4 related.
2) Testing for PO4 is just something we do to make ourselves busy but the results are meaningless. You might as well dip your finger in the tank, taste it, then emphatically state the first random number that comes to your mind. (It's important that you state it emphatically, otherwise you have to do the test again.)

It might not be THAT bad but OTOH, I think it's closer to the truth than we'd care to admit. I think it's getting into the territory of inorganic phosphate versus organic phosphate and how our test kits and testers can only give you readings of one of those (I forget which), but the SPS are inhibited by the one we can't test (we just hope that if we test for one, that the other is going to be reasonably close).

I notice a definite correlation in how well my corals are doing if I change out my GFO every week, versus at slower change out intervals. Unfortunately the cost of GFO and especially at my tank size (280g) it is quite cost prohibitive to be changing it out every week, so this is something I tend to get an "opportunity" to observe repeatedly. If I get all gung-ho and change it out every week, my SPS grows well. If I don't then .. not only do they not grow well, many will recede or let go altogether. It can be as little as letting it go one or two extra weeks between changing out my GFO.

And yet, the Hanna tester will repeatedly tell me that PO4 is not a concern because it will be 0.02 or something so low that it's in the "it can't be PO4 that is the problem" category. But like I said, I'm convinced that it probably is to blame for a large majority of otherwise-unexplainable SPS problems seen in the hobby.

I was previously changing my GFO every two weeks to 1 month, and had been doing it that was for nearly 2 years. A switch in brands to bulk high capacity GFO is on the list of changes that took place immediately prior to the damage taking place. Since this started I've changed the GFO once, and the next day three new colonies that hadn't been damaged before suddenly had huge chunks of flesh hanging off them in tatters. It's likely correlated and not causal, and I know other people who've used GFO from this same batch with no problems, but it's made me afraid to try changing it again.

Originally Posted by Scythanith

Thank you! I couldn't find it for the life of me. Asylum, have you had a chance to read through this article yet? I know you said you were pretty busy but I figured it would maybe help to calm you down about the whole situation. Yes, it's heartbreaking but sometimes you just have to ride it out and look at it as an opportunity to re do your aqua-scaping.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Yes I did read it. And the pictures and description look and sound exactly like what's happening in my tank, only he had way more time and resources to chase down possible leads. I've been getting 3 hours of sleep a night without even looking at my tank, so I've not been nearly as exhaustive in trouble shooting as I wish I could be.

Whether this has been the result of parameters swinging or getting out of whack in ways that I haven't been able to test or figure out, or a contaminant of some kind, the problem is either with something in the water, or something I'm adding to the water. Today I'm taking my GFO reactor, my biopellet reactor, and my dosing pump offline. I'm throwing out all the new additives that I've been using and going out and buying the more expensive brand name versions of everything. I'm going to do 50 gallon water changes every day until either this improves, or the majority of my corals are so far beyond any hope of saving that this will become a FOWLR tank until I can find new homes for the fish and organize the trades to turn the tank space in to a closet.

If this does improve, I'll add back elements one by one. Starting with a dosing pump dosing brand name "big three" chemicals, followed by brand name GFO, followed by biopellets. What sucks the most is knowing that with this amount of damage, my tank's recovery will be measured in years (if ever), and that's longer than I'm going to live in this house.

And thanks everyone for chiming in. 50% of my unresponsiveness is that I'm too busy to eat most days, and 50% because even thinking about my tank makes me feel sick to my stomach right now.

[kien]

sorry to hear Adam. This hobby can be a rough roller coaster ride of extreme ups and downs. I've been through coral die off a few times.. Most recently just a month ago where my DI had exhausted and I was dumping in poisonous water into my tank for weeks before I figured it out. An immediate removal of my DI and a couple of 50% water changes did the trick in stopping a complete wipe out this time around. But it's still painful.

[Scythanith]

My own personal experience with bulk chemicals is that I have no personal experience with bulk chemicals I wanted to go to them for $$$ reasons but my LFS owner highly recommended I don't for the exact reason you may be running into now. He recommended I use either the Tropic Marin of Fauna Marin systems. There is no way I can say the bulk chemicals are what caused your problems, but logically what else did you change that could impact your tank this dramatically?

If you're using a quality brand of salt, it should test pretty well for the big three parameters. Just buy doing frequent large water changes hopefully that can dilute the contaminants and maintain your values. I'd suggest you get back to dosing with commercial products as soon as possible though to promote some stability.

The good thing about this hobby is that once you get knocked down, fellow reefers are usually happy to help you out with frags, etc. to get you back on your feet.

Good luck!

[hfp75]

I sympathize for your situation!!

I tried to save few bucks and used HC-GFO and with a Hanna tester I was able to prove that the same levels of PO4 that went in to that reactor also came out!!! I have switched back to Rowa and we are back on track with total success!!

Sometimes the name brands cost more but they seem to be predictable....

[lastlight]

Really sorry to hear things haven't improved Adam. Can't imagine loss on that scale.

Originally Posted by hfp75

I sympathize for your situation!!

I tried to save few bucks and used HC-GFO and with a Hanna tester I was able to prove that the same levels of PO4 that went in to that reactor also came out!!! I have switched back to Rowa and we are back on track with total success!!

Sometimes the name brands cost more but they seem to be predictable....

HC-GFO from where?

I doubt properly working gfo knocks the levels down noticeably with one pass. I always thought it would take a small amount out (too small a change to detect) but it's the continual running of water through it that brings the overall level down in a measurable manner over time?

[brotherd]

Surely there must be someone local that has the knowledge and experience to go to your home and assist with this situation while you attend to your studies?