instant ocean or reef crystals?

[mr.wilson]

I consider salt brand selection as dealing with a known evil. It's easy for us to use the salt brand as a scape goat for the many unknowns out there when our tanks go awry. Salt often takes the fall for vibrio (bacterial infections), reef parasites such as acropora eating flatworms (AEFW) and montipora eating nudibranchs (MEN), as well as secondary metabolites (coral toxins). These are hard conditions to diagnose and even harder to treat, but changing salt is simple, and more importantly "somebody else's fault"

I'm not suggesting for a second that salt mixes are not to blame for downturns and tank crashes, these can and do happen. Some people change salt brands annually to provide more varied and balanced water chemistry. Perhaps that one loose end parameter such as iodide or potassium will fall in line with a brand change. Perhaps your current salt mix has a surplus of one particular element that your tank inhabitants don't readily utilize; a brand change will likely amend this issue.

With respect to Instant Ocean products, standard IO is best suited for fish only tanks as the calcium level is only 350-400 at 35ppt which is below NSW (natural sea water) levels. The KH of IO and IORC is the same (3.8-4.2, 11-12 @ 35ppt) which is higher than NSW (8). The magnesium level of IO and IORC is the same (1400 @ 35ppt) which is also higher than NSW (1350).

The calcium level of Instant Ocean Reef Crystals (IORC) is 450-500 which is way above NSW. If you were to use IORC in a lightly stocked reef tank and dosed or used a calcium reactor, the calcium level would likely rise to unsafe levels (>450). It is not uncommon for a new hobbyist to blindly dose two part additives without testing.

Some people use IO for reef tanks and test and amend the calcium to 400-430ppm. I have had a few reef tanks drift up to 500ppm due to the high levels in IORC.

I know a few people who stopped using H2 Ocean because the alk of freshly mixed water at 35ppt was 14 dkh. The high alk mixed with calcium reactors and chemical dosing ended up driving their KH to dangerous levels (>14). Apparently, this problem has been amended with the new H2 Ocean mix. A high Kh isn't always a problem. It is entirely possible that a nuisance algae problem could be eradicated with a KH of 12 or greater.

This brings me back to the known evil theory. I have used IO for 34 years. I'm currently using IO for fish only tanks and IORC for reef tanks. I cannot say with any certainty that I have ever had a salt mix related problem, other than high calcium from IORC. That's good enough for me I also look at what others are using and IORC seems to be the most common brand for public aquaria and large scale reef tanks such as Chingchai's in Thailand.

[Myka]

Hey Shawn, nice to see you posting on CanReef! [Mindy here]

I know a few people who stopped using H2 Ocean because the alk of freshly mixed water at 35ppt was 14 dkh. [...] Apparently, this problem has been amended with the new H2 Ocean mix.

When was that problem, and the change? My buckets (I've only used 5 buckets to date though) always test around 7.5 to 8.5 dKH (Elos).

Perhaps that one loose end parameter such as iodide or potassium will fall in line with a brand change. Perhaps your current salt mix has a surplus of one particular element that your tank inhabitants don't readily utilize; a brand change will likely amend this issue.

Yes, this is an interesting point.

I also look at what others are using and IORC seems to be the most common brand for public aquaria and large scale reef tanks such as Chingchai's in Thailand.

I think IO and IORC are the most poplar salts in the world mainly because of pricing and availability. IO was the first commerical salt mix to be readily available to hobbyists and professionals. They work - there is no doubt about that.

As you know, H2Ocean is a natural sea salt and IO and IORC are synthetic. It's like comparing natural and synthetic vitamins (which is all the rage these days), where some people claim there is no scientific difference between the way to body metabolizes synthetic vitamins compared to natural, yet there is plenty of data to support the other side of the argument as well. The frustrating thing about reefing is that there is very little scientific data to go on, and if there is any it is done by one professional with no comparative results from other researchers. Most of or "research" is anecdotal which is sketchy at best.

I just bought another years' supply of H2Ocean yesterday. The sale price of the H2Ocean was the same as the regular price of IO, so I really have nothing to lose. At this point, even if it is mind over matter it's working.

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Even within one bucket of IO, the mix is so inconsistent.

Are you mixing/rolling the bucket before use?

Originally Posted by Madreefer

Hmmm... wish I never asked the question. I just have to decide if it's worth spending $40 more per bucket of salt which turns out to an extra $480 a year in salt. Might try it but will have to wait for next trip to Vancouver. I dont know if I should be pi$$ed at you or thank you for the response. HAHA JK thanks

Find a good sale, or ask if your LFS can give you deal on 10 buckets. Try it for a year, and if you don't see anything, then you can be pi$$ed at me. OR, if you're happy...leave well enough alone!

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by Myka

Hey Shawn, nice to see you posting on CanReef! [Mindy here]

I know, I know... I need spend more time posting with my fellow Canucks.

Originally Posted by Myka

When was that problem, and the change? My buckets (I've only used 5 buckets to date though) always test around 7.5 to 8.5 dKH (Elos).

It was two years ago. I assume the goal was to replace carbonate dosing with water changes, but not every tank load and water change schedule is the same.

Originally Posted by Myka

I think IO and IORC are the most poplar salts in the world mainly because of pricing and availability. IO was the first commerical salt mix to be readily available to hobbyists and professionals. They work - there is no doubt about that.

This is true. Public aquariums get a good discount/subsidy and in reality, shipping costs play a major role in brand selection. They also have standards (good, bad or ugly) that need to be constant.

Originally Posted by Myka

As you know, H2Ocean is a natural sea salt and IO and IORC are synthetic. It's like comparing natural and synthetic vitamins (which is all the rage these days), where some people claim there is no scientific difference between the way to body metabolizes synthetic vitamins compared to natural, yet there is plenty of data to support the other side of the argument as well. The frustrating thing about reefing is that there is very little scientific data to go on, and if there is any it is done by one professional with no comparative results from other researchers. Most of or "research" is anecdotal which is sketchy at best.

I believe in the theory that there are phytochemicals that increase the efficacy of vitamins and nutrients, but for some reason I've always taken a less wholistic approach to salt mixes. Perhaps it is the bad experiences with other "natural" brands like Royal Ocean and Red Sea or maybe I'm just cynical of the bad stuff that comes with the good stuff in natural sea salt. I shouldn't trust man made chemicals over natures gifts, but in the case of dehydrated and supplemented sea salt it isn't exactly natural anymore. I do eat sea salt chips if that's a conciliation

Originally Posted by Myka

I just bought another years' supply of H2Ocean yesterday. The sale price of the H2Ocean was the same as the regular price of IO, so I really have nothing to lose. At this point, even if it is mind over matter it's working.

I believe there was a recent general price drop on H2Ocean. It was voted the most popular salt on ultimate reef which is a UK based reef forum. H2Ocean originates in the UK so cost and availability is obviously a factor.

Everyone has a brand they have settled with but it doesn't appear that the debate is as hot as other topics within the hobby.

[Arok3000]

Here is my take on many matters related to our hobby, including choice of salt brand.

In the industry that I work in, we have a failsafe procedure for every major equipment in use. They are always a similar model from a different manufacturer. If for some unseen circumstance the first unit fails due to internal fault or programming, the second unit has a significantly lower chance of failing in the same scenario.
Let's say there's a zombie virus outbreak on Vancouver Island, and there is a newfound cure for the virus in Winnipeg of all places. To send the antidote securely, we would send a batch by air on a Boeing, and another batch on an Airbus, then we would also send two batches via ground, one pulled by a Freightliner and one pulled by a Kenworth. This would give us the best chance of at least one shipment arriving.
Okay that scenario was a little extreme, but it gives you the idea.

Back to reefing, in my tank, I run two similar heater cycles on my controller, one runs an jager, the other runs a hydor. I dont necessarily trust either brand of these heaters on their own, but I trust the pair of them to not fail simultaneously more than I trust any single heater. Same thing goes with salt, I am not certain that reef crystals offers my tank everything it needs, so I also use h2ocean at the same time to mix things up a little. I may even add salinity in there as I like to try new products occasionally.
It can be debated that I am increasing the risk of mixing in a bad batch of salt, but that risk isn't great, and by not running one salt exclusively, in the case of a bad batch I am actually diluting that batch by 50% by including another brand.
I might be mistaken, but I believe Dez was a fan of running multiple salts also.

So not only does this allow wiggle room for potential model specific problems, but this also helps eliminate those long, sleepless nights of mentally debating which product you want to go with.

That said, I have always had a bucket of Reef Crystals on hand. ;-)

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by Arok3000

Here is my take on many matters related to our hobby, including choice of salt brand.

In the industry that I work in, we have a failsafe procedure for every major equipment in use. They are always a similar model from a different manufacturer. If for some unseen circumstance the first unit fails due to internal fault or programming, the second unit has a significantly lower chance of failing in the same scenario.
Let's say there's a zombie virus outbreak on Vancouver Island, and there is a newfound cure for the virus in Winnipeg of all places. To send the antidote securely, we would send a batch by air on a Boeing, and another batch on an Airbus, then we would also send two batches via ground, one pulled by a Freightliner and one pulled by a Kenworth. This would give us the best chance of at least one shipment arriving.
Okay that scenario was a little extreme, but it gives you the idea.

Back to reefing, in my tank, I run two similar heater cycles on my controller, one runs an jager, the other runs a hydor. I dont necessarily trust either brand of these heaters on their own, but I trust the pair of them to not fail simultaneously more than I trust any single heater. Same thing goes with salt, I am not certain that reef crystals offers my tank everything it needs, so I also use h2ocean at the same time to mix things up a little. I may even add salinity in there as I like to try new products occasionally.
It can be debated that I am increasing the risk of mixing in a bad batch of salt, but that risk isn't great, and by not running one salt exclusively, in the case of a bad batch I am actually diluting that batch by 50% by including another brand.
I might be mistaken, but I believe Dez was a fan of running multiple salts also.

So not only does this allow wiggle room for potential model specific problems, but this also helps eliminate those long, sleepless nights of mentally debating which product you want to go with.

That said, I have always had a bucket of Reef Crystals on hand. ;-)

The failsafe game is a tough one. On one hand, diversification limits the extent of any disaster and on the other, you may be doubling your chance of failure with the worst of each technology.

I don't trust heaters either. It isn't a matter of if, but when they will fail. The bigger mystery is whether they will fail in the off position or fatal on position. The same is true of solenoids and actuator valves on auto top off systems; will the ATO jam in the "kill the tank" mode or "kill your marriage/flood" mode

I prefer titanium heater construction, but I do like the double fail safe of glass heaters with built-in thermostat. I set the secondary thermostat of an aquarium controller to a higher temp (80f) so it overrules the built-in thermostat (78f) should it jam in the on position.

Using multiple salts isn't a bad idea. You are more likely to encounter a salt with a deficit than surplus, but anything is possible. As salt prices become more competitive, salt manufacturers will be looking for ways to cut costs. If using magnesium sulphate is cheaper than magnesium chloride we would pay the cost.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Perhaps it is the bad experiences with other "natural" brands like Royal Ocean and Red Sea or maybe I'm just cynical of the bad stuff that comes with the good stuff in natural sea salt. I shouldn't trust man made chemicals over natures gifts, but in the case of dehydrated and supplemented sea salt it isn't exactly natural anymore. I do eat sea salt chips if that's a conciliation

Heh, good point. I have wondered about what else might be in natural sea salt, and hope they have decent filtering methods.

Oh, and sea salt chips are gross, and I'll continue taking a fist full of "natural" supplement pills everyday.

Everyone has a brand they have settled with but it doesn't appear that the debate is as hot as other topics within the hobby.

Mm, no. LED vs MH and Tunze vs EcoTech are much more dramatic recently.

[iceman86]

Reef crystals is my brand, I've been looking onto h2ocean but too many mixed reviews. Plus big als has reef crystals pails for $35 right now

[fishyfishster]

Yeah can't beat the price

[Leah]

I am happy with Instant ocean too!

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by fishyfishster

Yeah can't beat the price

Actually you can. If you buy IO and add your own calcium chloride it will cost less than IORC and it will be closer to NSW levels.

The idea of supplementing calcium, alk, magnesium etc. through water changes only works if there is a demand/depletion and if the water changes are large and frequent. A reef tank that is 30 gallons or smaller would benefit from such a salt if weekly water changes of 10% or greater were made. A large tank with infrequent water changes would not benefit from supplementation through water changes. If you are dosing chemicals or using a Ca reactor, there is no need for a salt with level elevated beyond NSW.

H2Ocean and Tropic Marin are both closer to NSW levels than either IO product. Tropic Marin is supposed to be homogeneous, so it is better suited for people who want to use an open bucket over time without compromising quality.