Salt Virgin Needs Advice

[NewGuy]

Sooo after many months of lurking around reef forums and drooling over peoples reef systems, the yearning is starting to take its toll on my sanity . I have freshwater experience and a biosciences background so I am familiar with most of the chemistry issues and the general science side of things. What I lack is practical experience, cash, and time (full-time student).

Anyway I am trying to assess the feasibility of attempting to start a marine/reef setup for the lowest cost possible. I am under no illusion that I will be keeping SPS or anything, only some softies or maybe even a LPS!! I have a 30g and a 29g which I picked up for cheap. I intend to go skimmerless (to reduce cost and it seems doable from some of the threads on RC) so most of the 29g will become a refugium with a DSB for nutrient export and parameter stabilization while the 30g (36") will become the display. Hopefully the large size of the refugium to display ratio will help alot.

So I have a few questions for you reefers out there. Oh and if you recommend items please be aware that I am unable to purchase online. Everything will have to be sourced locally. I am in the Vancouver area.

1) Are T8 bulbs even available in higher colour temperatures such as 20K? I intend to go DIY lighting. I am aware that there is T12NO bulbs available from the fish stores but they are still like $20 each. If T8s are available I intend to OD them. However I might luckout and pickup some lighting for super cheap. You never know afterall.

2) For healthy DSBs is aragonite necessary? Does anyone have experience with sand beds composed of play sand? Play sand is still relatively fine and the small critters might not mind the fact that its not of the ideal composition. Aragonite will be in the display for aesthetic, livestock and chemistry purposes.

3) What is a cheap return pump that will be capable of delivering 600+gph at 4' of head? I was contemplating a Quiet One 4000 but I have been reading some unfavourable reviews about them. Are there any better or EVEN CHEAPER choices out there? It can be a sh*ity pump if its dirt cheap. I intend to use no powerheads and this return will be the only source of flow. Maybe a SCWD can be plumbed in if I can get one for CHEAP.

4) Where can I get a glass hole saw? How much would it cost me?

Anyway please don't say "blah blah get a bubbleking" because its simply not feasible for me at the moment. Part of the fun comes from trying to do something with the least possible so I view this as a challenge.

Thanks for reading

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Welcome to Canreef

You can definitely start an aquarium on a budget, especially if you're willing to do regular water changes (in lieu of a skimmer), etc. The large refugium will help, too.

I don't use sandbeds or know anything about fluorescent bulbs so much, so I can't help with those questions. Regarding the pump, you might consider the Hydor Seltz line. They're fairly inexpensive, as pumps go, and they're dead quiet (and reliable). A diamond-coated hole saw bit is really cheap to order online...but I guess that's not an option for you. They vary in prices at the different stores (Home Depot and Rona will sell them for around $60/ea. which is really expensive, but I know people have gotten them at Princess Auto for much cheaper). Your other option is to borrow one, or see if someone local can help with the drilling.

Good luck

[niloc16]

[quote=NewGuy;363791]Sooo after many months of lurking around reef forums and drooling over peoples reef systems, the yearning is starting to take its toll on my sanity . I have freshwater experience and a biosciences background so I am familiar with most of the chemistry issues and the general science side of things. What I lack is practical experience, cash, and time (full-time student).

Anyway I am trying to assess the feasibility of attempting to start a marine/reef setup for the lowest cost possible. I am under no illusion that I will be keeping SPS or anything, only some softies or maybe even a LPS!! I have a 30g and a 29g which I picked up for cheap. I intend to go skimmerless (to reduce cost and it seems doable from some of the threads on RC) so most of the 29g will become a refugium with a DSB for nutrient export and parameter stabilization while the 30g (36") will become the display. Hopefully the large size of the refugium to display ratio will help alot.

So I have a few questions for you reefers out there. Oh and if you recommend items please be aware that I am unable to purchase online. Everything will have to be sourced locally. I am in the Vancouver area.

1) Are T8 bulbs even available in higher colour temperatures such as 20K? I intend to go DIY lighting. I am aware that there is T12NO bulbs available from the fish stores but they are still like $20 each. If T8s are available I intend to OD them. However I might luckout and pickup some lighting for super cheap. You never know afterall.

i would say go with T5 lighting, it can be cheap if you search around, aquatic addictions in abbotsford has some good prices and with T5's you will have good quality lighting

2) For healthy DSBs is aragonite necessary? Does anyone have experience with sand beds composed of play sand? Play sand is still relatively fine and the small critters might not mind the fact that its not of the ideal composition. Aragonite will be in the display for aesthetic, livestock and chemistry purposes.

i would really suggest not going with a DSB. if you want sand, use enough to cover the glass and whatever is at the bottom of thank. DSB can be a MAJOR hassle in the long wrong

[superduperwesman]

+1 for T5s

[NewGuy]

Hi thanks for the replies.

Does anyone know if any of the retailers in the lower mainland carry the Hydor Seltz line?

I obviously want to go T5HO and I have looked into it but its still pricey unless I find a cheap used setup. For a 4 lamp setup the bulbs alone will be around $120 after tax not to mention the ballasts and endcaps. I know that I can overdrive 4 T8 lamps for around $70 in ballasts. It all depends on whether such lamps exist and how much they cost. I believe that 4 T8 lamps overdriven 2X (or more with another $35 dollar ballast) will be reasonably close in lighting to T5HO especially when no individual reflectors are involved.

As for the DSB I really dont know what to do yet. I have read the information available and the science seems reasonable. Since I have zero experience I might just go ahead and try it to experiment a bit. I doubt that if I do decide to go ahead that this system will remain untouched over the longrun.

Also I want to do the least amount of waterchanges possible since salt is expensive . I will also be using TAPWATER DUM DUM DUUUUUM!!. Vancouver water is really quite pure. If you look at the reports nitrates are usually below 0.1ppm and phosphate is undetectable by analytical methods so I believe it to be "good enough for now".

[niloc16]

no disrespect man and dont take this the wrong way but you need to listen more to the reefers that have hands on experience then what books and scientists say. you asked for advice and we are not salesmen and store owners so we are not trying up sell you on anything. one thing you DONT wanna cheap out on is lighting. i have wasted WAY too much money tryin to do stuff the cheap way and trust me it has cost me ten times more then it should have. yeah sure you can use tap water, just keep your bioload WAY down otherwise in a couple months you will be on here asking for advice on how to get rid of your hair algae and turf algae and every other nuisance algae out there.

[NewGuy]

I take no offense at all and please don't take this the wrong way either, this is pricely what I meant whan I jokingly said "dont say "blah blah blah buy a bubbleking"".

I realize that you are making good recommendations regarding a good reef system. However, the whole point of this excercise is to CHEAP OUT as much as possible. Yes I lack experience and I realize that, hence why I am here. I need some insight as to where I could possibly cheap out some more. I am not aiming for a "mainstream" reef setup with the greatest chance of success. I am trying to squeeze in there on the margins of success with the lowest cost possible and thus trying to take every cost cutting measure possible. If I fail so be it since not that much was lost anyway. I am not wasting money buying various commericial products and ending up having to get another since I bought the cheap commercial product. I am will try to make everything reusable for something else. Trust me I know all about the algae just from my freshwater experience alone.

I have read no books or listened to the "scientists" as you say. Everything I am contemplating is derived from reading about peoples actual reefkeeping experiences.

Thanks for your time.

[Slick Fork]

Welcome to Canreef and Salt water.

I gotta say I agree with Niloc16. There's ways to save money, and then there's being cheap to the point of setting yourself up for disaster.

As an example, for water changes you can buy a 150 gallon pail of instant ocean for $40ish from J&L which is right in Burnaby for you. At roughly 60 gallons of water (total volume) a 10% water change is going to be 6 gallons. At that rate that $40 will last you 25 water changes or roughly 6 months (if you're changing weekly) so that works out to be $1.60 in salt each water change. I don't know about Vancouvers tap water so I'll recommend RO and let more local guys prove me wrong. If you have a grocery store or water store nearby you can typically buy a 5 gallon jug of RO water for about $4 or $5 here in Alberta. Hopefully it's the same where you live so that brings your cost/water change up to $6.60 each time. If that's really too much for you then I gotta say you're probably in the wrong hobby. Without a skimmer water changes are quite important.

I would second the recommendation for the hydor seltz line. I'm also using a quiet one 3000 and it works fine. I like your idea of a refugium that's almost the same size as the display but I would stay away from a DSB, if you want go with a couple of inches for aesthetics.

If you really don't want to spend a whole bunch on lighting right now, I would start it as a FOWLR tank with Normal Flourescent lighting. Even regular flourescent bulbs should allow you to grow some nice macros that will also contribute to nutrient export. Save your money and buy a quality used fixture when one becomes available and as funds allow.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

One thing about the reefing side of the hobby is that it is expensive. It is theoretically possible to cheap out on equipment, but you'll probably never achieve the results or the livestock health that you hope for. I have always maintained that either you spend the $$ or the time (preferably both) if you want to grow corals.

If you cheap out on lights, you'll end up being unhappy with the colour or intensity & wish you had gotten something better in the first place (most reefers have upgraded their lighting several times by trying this route).

If you go skimmerless, then either have minimum fish/feeding or be prepared to do water changes. Without a skimmer or water changes, you're looking at much higher probability of a tank crash due to hair algae from the build up of nutrients.

Most cheap/generic T8s I believe are 6700k or lower, so your tank will be yellowish & your water will look like pee.

Yes, it is possible to go this route (I started out totally KISS) but the odds of success are much lower. In the end, I spent a lot more money upgrading tanks & equipment so that now my systems are more-or-less self-sufficient (minimum water changes/maintenance). But to reach that state, I spent a LOT of $$ to get the proper equipment.

On another fish board, I have lots of members ask the same types of questions & I usually recommend that if they don't have the time or $$ to do it properly, then wait till your circumstances change (ie. graduate & get a good job) before jumping into sw.

From what you've stated so far, I would also recommend doing a low bioload fowlr first & then try some softie frags when you have more money for proper lighting &/or skimmer/water changes.

Remember, if you go this cheapout route & fail, its not just a little of your money lost, but also all the livestock you will have killed for no good reason. Something to think about.

Anthony

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

BTW, unless you use reef bulbs (ie. not 6700k plant bulbs), you're going to end up with a tank of hair algae - pretty much guaranteed.

So if you really insist on going the T8 overdriven route, then make sure you use 10,000k & actinic bulbs, not generic daylight or soft white bulbs that will cause you endless headaches.