Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[VFX]

From the WHO:

As of 18th October 2009.

Number of cases Worldwide: Over 414945

Number of Deaths Worldwide: At least 4999

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[VFX]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.

Please don't be so insulting. There's obviously a sar-chasm between us.

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[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by VFX

Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

GSP - did you get a preventative Tamiflu 'script because of your asthma condition?

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

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I think you have to keep an open mind and some of those theories are pretty "out there" and some are more likely but all are certainly possible. We are all so well trained to obey and not question how/why things work. I think its crazy how many people actually are so closed minded and think "it's just not possible". I don't necessarily believe in most of them myself but I also don't not believe in them if that makes sense. Do you really think the "people at the top" or in power if you will (and that doesn't at all mean government), live in the same world you and I do?

It was my fiancee who was prescribed Tamiflu as a precaution because she is asthmatic. Im not sure many doctors will do that but it's a family member who knows her medical background very well and like I said does not want us to get the vaccination. Her asthma was very severe about 7 years back and she was hospitalized a few times for it. In the past 5 years though, she has not had the flu once and rarely gets even a slight cold. In his opinion, she is not at a higher risk of getting H1N1 but the concern is how her immune system would react if she did get it. He just wanted her to be able to take Tamiflu right away if needed.

[VFX]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

I think you have to keep an open mind and some of those theories are pretty "out there" and some are more likely but all are certainly possible. We are all so well trained to obey and not question how/why things work. I think its crazy how many people actually are so closed minded and think "it's just not possible". I don't necessarily believe in most of them myself but I also don't not believe in them if that makes sense. Do you really think the "people at the top" or in power if you will (and that doesn't at all mean government), live in the same world you and I do?

I'm glad we're on the same page! You said it better than I did.

You do know that Canreef is now being monitored closely right? I did mention 'US' 'Conspiracy' 'Illuminati' & 'Free Mason' in the same thread!

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[rjengen]

No, No, and No...I don't want it. The last time I was sick was 5 years ago when I got a flu shot, and since then I don't bother. My son is 3 years old, and honestly the only time he has been sick was the night he cut his first two teeth. Other then that time, has has never had a snivle, sneeze, or cough...and yes, we chose to not give him the recomended barrage of vacinations when he was born. We're not hippies, or crazy people...we just take the time to research all of the facts that are now out their due to the internet.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

.

The reason pigs seem to be a link appears to be due to the receptors that they have on their cells that the viruses use to attach and infect them. Birds and human proteins are different enough that the viruses have a hard time making that jump. Pigs seem to have proteins similar to both the bird ones and the human ones so the avian flu can jump to pigs more easilly. Once in the pig the virus can mutate to favour the human type receptor proteins and voila, you now have a virus that can more easily infect humans. Secondly, while a mutation to jump species is rare, mutations in general are much more common (I think I read somewhere the mutation rate in influenza virus is 1.4 per generation so in very simplistic terms within three generations of virus you can have a new strain). Especially in things like viruses and bacteria that reproduce quickly and measure their generations in hours instead of years. Thirdly, influenza virus has the ability to have what might be called virus sex (antigenic shift). So if an unlucky pig were to be infected with both an avian flu virus and a human flu virus at the same time they can swap some genes and you can end up with an avian flu virus that now has picked up some tricks to infect human cells too.

Originally Posted by VFX

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

What likely changed in 2009 was a mutation to make the virus more able able to move from human to human rather than just pig to human. Often humans who work on the farms will catch avian or swine flu but the virus is then not able to go from them to other humans. I suspect it is common for farm workers to catch avian or swine flu but usually they have mild or no symptoms so it likely goes unreported and unknown. But occasionally they may catch a strain that is better able to infect humans and they may have a less mild flu so it is then noticed by the medical professionals. And on that rare occasion we end up with a virus that is more capable of doing the human to human jump and we end up with it now infecting the general population.

Several strains of flu do not produce the PB1-F2 protein and this strain of H1N1 does not either. It is not uncommon and it appears to be a good thing. The PB1-F2 protein appears to increase the virulence of the virus and make it more lethal. It was produced by the viruses that caused pandemics in the past so I guess we are lucky this time. This H1N1 could have been more virulent and deadly had it produced that protein. However, here's the thing. H1N1 does carry the gene for PB1-F2 but it is currently switched off. And while not active at the moment the virus could mutate and the gene could become active so a more virulent strain could emerge. This is one of the reasons vaccination is important. The more people vaccinated, the fewer people get infected and the lower the chance that a more virulent mutation can occur and spread.

Originally Posted by VFX

The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

The mercury compound found in the vaccine, thimerosal is there as an antifungal and antiseptic agent rather than an adjuvant. You want that there so bacteria don't grow in the vaccine and you end up giving people some other infection when you inject them. Firstly, it is a very low toxicity compound that is different than free mercury which is neurotoxic (although that neurotoxicity is reversible) or the organomercury compounds that are considered very toxic. Secondly, this type of mercury compound is actually excreted by your body fairly easily and will be eliminated quickly. Finally it is important to note that it is present in minute amounts and the vaccine contains less mercury then a can of tuna so it is not something to worry about.

The components in the vaccine are as follows:

1. 3.75 micrograms of H1N1 HA protein from the dead virus

2. Squalene. Doing a quick search it looks like the LD50 (the dose that caused 50% of test animals to die) is 1.8 g/Kg(grams per kilogram body weight). The amount of squalene in a dose of vaccine is 10.69 mg or 0.01069 grams. So in an average say 55 kg adult that works out to a dose of 0.00019436 g/Kg which works out to a margin of safety of over 5000:1. So if you gave a bunch of people 5000 vaccine injections to each of those people then about half would die. Of course that is assuming the same LD50 in humans and the LD50 in humans is typically much higher than in mice so the safety margin is likely even higher than that. BTW, that safety margin of 5000:1 is much better then many drugs you take commonly such as tylenol etc. Also, squalene is commonly used by the cosmetic industry in skin moisturizers so you have probably all been exposed to it in the past.

2. 11.86 mg DL-alpha-tocopherol - This is vitamin E. You all like Vitamin E don't you?

3. 4.86 mg Polysorbate 80. This is an emulsifier that helps keep the squalene (fish oil) mixed in with the water and other components in the vaccine. It is very common in food and cosmetics and considered safe. I think some studies showed that higher doses of Polysorbate 80 may cause infertility in rats that was at much higher doses then you will see in this vaccine (again, probably needing to inject thousands of doses to get to that level)

The vaccine also contains a number of excipients which are routine additives that are considered safe such as sodium chloride, the above mentioned thimerosal, potassium phosphate, potassium chloride etc.

As for other "undisclosed" biologicals that is not likely. Regulators are very strict about disclosure of what is in your drugs etc. and every ingredient, including water, has to be listed and disclosed. Uou typically have to submit results of independent analysis of your drug to the regulatory bodies. If you want to read about the vaccine check this link:

http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/A..._CAPA01v01.pdf

Originally Posted by VFX

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

I do think conspiracy theories are silly. Do you really think secret societies of powerful people are controlling the world? Not likely. Have you seen the egos these people have? Can you imagine Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs etc. being able to work together and agree on things to control the world? Not really likely

As for any conspiracy to reduce the human population why do we need a bioengineered flu virus or suspicious vaccines? We have war and famine and to do the job and mother nature is also very good at controlling populations with diseases such as this. So come on, let's be real. I discount and ridicule them because they are extremely implausible and unlikely. There is no real evidence to support them. But they make good stories for Dan Brown, Hollywood and the internet I would ask the people advising you not to take the vaccine to explain to you exactly why they are against it and provide sound evidence and reasoning for it.

I'm a scientist and I am all for questioning things as that is the scientific method. But it has to be done in a reasonable and systematic way and conclusions have to be arrived at based on facts, and evidence rather then anecdotes and feelings and fear and misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by VFX

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

.

I'm not really sure if any direct link has been established between vitamin D and flus etc. However, it does appear that with our current diets and habits (more time in front of computers, TV, playstations etc.) we are all getting less sunshine and have lower levels of vitamin D so that can probably have general effects on our health and immune system. It does appear that vitamin D plays a role in production of certain immune system proteins in humans. Probably wouldn't hurt to take some Vitamin D supplements to make sure you are getting what you require and maximize your bodies natural defenses. But it is not going to be a a miracle cure or preventative etc. It may just help you fight the infection if you get it.

Anyhow, I need to get back to work now...

[Reef_kid]

I believe that everyone should be getting this vaccine , as a biochemist/micro with most of my training in immunology. The H1N1 is getting worse . A person is infected for up to 48 hours befor symptoms. And hits hard! For 7 to 14 days... In which you infecouse and creatibg viral protiens untill your immune system can act..and often peole with compromised immunity are dieing .. By not getting the vaccine your not just putting yourself at risk but you kids family parents... (I don't want to be the one that spreads it to my 1year old nephew or your 80 year old grandmother on the bus that could kill them) the immunology is ty well understood and safe. Sadly that information is not own to the public 90% of the time and that causes the media hype and fear. The general seasonal flu is taken care ofby our immune system however H1N1 is hitting hard. As a science person it's my "strong and personal " opinion that everyone should be vaccinated because it's our responsibility to look after our health!! And the people we love !! If you do get sick stay home... Don't go to the. Doc unless you must.. Drink lots of electrolyte and rest.. For fever ice packs, and tylonal or ibprophan .. Do not over dose on tylonal though.. If your fever is 103 or higher call 811 bc nurse hotline Please stay healthy our fish depend on it

[pinhead]

Originally Posted by rjengen

we just take the time to research all of the facts that are now out their due to the internet.

Unless you are visiting the sites of universities, hospitals, governments or scientific journals, I would be very suspicous and skeptical of information I found on the internet. Anyone can form their own organization, anyone can set up their own website and say whatever they want.

This link http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/...ccine-dangers/ has been mentioned as a source of information.

This is from the impressive sounding "4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat’l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009" http://www.nvic.org/default.aspx

Sounds like a scientific conference and a research facility but a little digging would show:

National Vaccine Information Center was founded in 1982 by Barbara Loe Fisher. She formed the Centre after her son suffered convulsions at the age of 2 1/2 and was left with learning disabilities and ADD. She claims this was a result of a vaccination.

Her education is bachelor of arts degree in English from the University of Maryland and she was employed by the New York Life Insurance Company.

Some of the exhibitors at the conference were E-HolisticHealth.com; Homeopaths.ca; Homeopathy Center of Houston;


This information is from someone with no background in science, who has done no real research and is supported by businesses who believe in crap - Homeopaths

Get your advice from the experts. Don't listen to the opinions of people who do not have a background in science or have no expertise in this field.

I would not ask my insurance agent about repairing my car. Why would you listen to them regarding your health.

[midgetwaiter]

I often wonder what will happen to these anti vaccine nuts if they manage to convince a parent to not vaccinate a child that ends up sterile from the mumps. Try and fix that with Oil of horsesh*t tea.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Unless you are visiting the sites of universities, hospitals, governments or scientific journals, I would be very suspicous and skeptical of information I found on the internet. Anyone can form their own organization, anyone can set up their own website and say whatever they want.

This link http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/...ccine-dangers/ has been mentioned as a source of information.

This is from the impressive sounding "4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat’l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009" http://www.nvic.org/default.aspx

Sounds like a scientific conference and a research facility but a little digging would show:

National Vaccine Information Center was founded in 1982 by Barbara Loe Fisher. She formed the Centre after her son suffered convulsions at the age of 2 1/2 and was left with learning disabilities and ADD. She claims this was a result of a vaccination.

Her education is bachelor of arts degree in English from the University of Maryland and she was employed by the New York Life Insurance Company.

Some of the exhibitors at the conference were E-HolisticHealth.com; Homeopaths.ca; Homeopathy Center of Houston;


This information is from someone with no background in science, who has done no real research and is supported by businesses who believe in crap - Homeopaths

Get your advice from the experts. Don't listen to the opinions of people who do not have a background in science or have no expertise in this field.

I would not ask my insurance agent about repairing my car. Why would you listen to them regarding your health.

Good information. I didn't even bother to look up the conference or organization as the video had nothing of any actual substance in it but was a collection of sound bites assembled to frighten people and make vaccines look bad. But nobody actually cites any actual research or really even mentions anything specific. Just lots of general nonsense.