Show Us Your LED Tanks

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Milad

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.

actualy trust me.. walking him through it isn't a good idea.... at all....

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I've read a few threads where people reported good or great results with SPS tanks, but only for a limited time. I guess when some RC TOTM with neon colors gets posted, and a subsequent follow up 2 or 3 years later shows consistent results, I would consider it. Assuming I could do it cheaper than today, and/or someone was going to build it for me.

actualy I was reading a few threads last night after work on people pushing the 3 year mark with there DIY LED setups and from the pictures they are getting good results. one guy posted pictures every 2 or 3 months and you could see the improvment in each one over his MH lights.

granted most are just hitting the 1 year mark now but there are some hitting two and 3 years of sucess. and concidering how often you ripp your tank down and start over..... seriously though

LEDs have been used sucessfully in growing plants for over 7 years now, so it is proven that they provide the nessasary requirments for photosynthis... it just took a few more years to develop the power needed to punch through water

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by gobytron

Cant agree with you there.
LED business is EXPLODING, there are tonnes of new developments in the technology and manufacturing process and more and more companies joining the fray either directly or through joint ventures...this is called an emerging market and the automobile market is an established and stagnant market with no new players joining the fray for some time....electronic vehicles however fit perfectly into the emerging market category with the first all electric Chevy volt having a stocker of arund 45,000$ (and the first one sold at auction for over 200,000$) with Chevy already anticipating a better version (longer travel per charge) and a lower sticker price in the next model year...

This is just the laws of supply and demand at work here, as more competiton enters the supply side, competition leads to lower prices unless there is as much of a significant increase in demand..which given the hobby, seems unlikely.

Look at how much an old aqualight Advance would have cost you 7 or 8 years ago...over 2K for a 48" one and all they had was MH...no led or supplements.

now you can buy a comparable unit for less than half of that price that comes with LEDs and supplements and offer a better design to boot.

There are already these "cheap" designs you metioned...these will only get more advanced as time goes by...I would be shicked if n the next 3 years, we didnt have a "cheap" model that rivalled everything the current Vertex can do and then some.

This process has already been slowed down due to some patent issues (pfo solaris anyone) in the states but that too wll pass and lead to a eve bigger wave of manufacturers getting involved.

Yes I agree with the theory but that's all it really is, a theory. Solaris fixtures came out in 2007, that was 4 years ago and yet no price drop in LED fixtures yet, some cost more. So in another 3 years you expect to see a 75% reduction in price? Give me a break dude. I'll put money down that LED fixtures will not drop more than 20% in the next three years, if that.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I have to disagree with a lot of the posts, there is a tremendous savings potential we'll use brads tank as a example.

3x 400 watt MH set up comparing apples to apples your looking at 300-400 each for the first set up with bulbs so 900-1200 bucks.

initial set up for LED 4000 for a store bought, say 1200 for a DIY (which Brad could do if I still lived close )

cost of a chiller for brads tank is say 400. (most likely more) and power for MH is going to be about 550 watts each for a total of 1675 watts.

power for LEDs is going to be about 300 watts for that tank.

so power cost wise using brads example of 25 bucks a month to run the MH, 5 bucks a month to run the LEDs but we'll say 8 bucks.

now at 50,000 hours the LEDs will have to be changed after 11 years running 12 hours a day

so thats 10 bulb changes for the MH at 300 bucks a change for diecent bulbs.

Oh we forgot the T5's/VHO, ect for suplemental lighting with the MH so another 70 bucks a year.

so lets add it all up over an 11 year period.

MH
3300 in electricity. (not including the suplamantal lighting)
3700 in bulb changes
900 for initial setup very cheep side or 1200 normal
400 for the chiller (cheep side) and say 2000.00 in power to run it for 11 years. most likely it will not last that long but we'll assume you don't need to buy another one.

this comes to a total of 10300 over 11 years.. kinda depressing when you think about it now

LED
bought option
4000 for fixture
1056 to run it
0 for bulb changes
0 for chiller as I know the only reason I needed one was because of my MH light in victoria

so 5056 bucks for 11 years.
if he did a DIY set up and even spent 2000 on it then he would be just over 3K for 11 years.


now both of these are assuming there are no premature bulb failures which I had in about 1/5th of the MH I bought and I would suspect that there would be a smaller number of failures with LEDs.

lets talk about the pros and cons of each asside from setup and operating costs.

Color.

MH you are stuck with 1 color untill you change out bulbs. the LED set up you have an infinate range of color blending between royal blue and cool white (6500K to about 30K) with the LED if you don't like the color one day you can switch it at whim by changing the dimming levels of one color or the other.

New corals

MH you have to place New frags low in the tank and or come up with a screening method to reduce the amount of light till they are used to it.

LED you can placve your corals in there spot and drop your intensity and slowly bring it back up over any time period you want with out screening or moving the light

Heat. MH are a radiant heat source, LEDs are not. need I say more on this.. could mean the difference of using a chiller or not.

controlability.

MH do not dim.

Leds can be turned on at 1% of there power and raised in 1% incraments over any time perior you select. you can also do this with the blue then with the white and reverse at the end.
If you want you can also rig your white LEDs to simulate lightning and other visual effects like clouds and such depending how there set up.

finaly light spillage. MH ratiate 360 degrees so you need good reflectors to gain the advantage of all the light and even then your not getting it all.

Leds are also a point source light but they are directional and with optice you can direct your light only where needed not using reflectors with no light spillage which requires larger canopys and housings.

Steve

OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate.

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested.

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

[Dez]

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides)

[StirCrazy]

oh so many and where do I start.. sphelps, I am not even sure if it is worth it with you as you are a die hard anti-LED person anyways but

as for the original poster and a 100 gal, doesn't matter as for my example I said we would use brads tank.

Originally Posted by sphelps

OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate..

sorry I did make a little mistake. its actualy 432 watts of LED so I have to add 13% to the power usage. I changed the current I am going to drive them at. you know what.. lets add another 48 LEDs and setup so i'll take it up to 1600 bucks for you and it will be about 576 watts so now were running at 1/3 the power so the actual 8 bucks a month I used in the example so power costs are actual to my example now as I over estimated the Led usage to start as for efficiency.. the best MH is about 88 lumin/watt LEDs are now getting close to 150 lumin/watt now as for 300- 500 watts of LED replacing 1200 watt of MH.. actualy easy. you don't think you getting any where near the full 1200 watts of light into that tank do you? I would hazord to guess at most your getting a 75% efficiency of light transfer even with a very good reflector. and that is a very generous guess. with LEDs you are getting 100% of the light into the tank. when they start making MH bulbs that only shine on one side then well be revisiting this one

Originally Posted by sphelps

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested .

yes and no.. the money value gets bigger but the % should remain simular

Originally Posted by sphelps

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

good for you.. so have I and I found the problems were from not having a chiller. where you live in your house you may not need one.. do you have central air, do you have low humidity? if you have high humidity remember the heat transfer due to evaporation is going to suck.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

nope, cuz at the 50,000 hours the LEDs are rated to only lose 15-20% of there output with no color change.. LEDs lose that during the break in so realy you could keep on using the LEDs for a long time after this

Originally Posted by sphelps

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

I do a comparason for the 30 gal I am building for you after I take the kids to school

Steve

[sphelps]

I'm not anti LED, I run LEDs right now on a nano and I'm considering LEDs on my 100 gallon. I just look at things from both sides rather than forming bias opinions and examples to prove a point. You need 1 LED for every 12 square inches, 3 400W halides can easily light a 9 foot x 3 foot area with the right reflectors and you could keep anything you want under that. You would need 324 LEDs to replace that and that's 900W. So it's all on how you look at it and how you compare, very easy to come up with bias examples to support either side. Here's another one:

Reflector design for reef aquariums has improved considerably allowing for more efficient use of light. With these reflectors we can now light reef aquarium with fewer lamps, get deeper light penetration over larger areas. As an example, I am currently lighting my 500G reef aquarium (84"LX48"WX30"D) with just 3 400W metal halide lamps in Lumenarc reflectors with no supplemental lighting.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/review
That tank will require on the low side 1 LED per 15sqin meaning close to 270 LEDs or 810W

I think it's just hilarious how some people worship LEDs like it's the second coming of Christ, they just simply aren't as good as some people seem to think. Yes they are a good option but certainly not the only one or always the best.

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

[Aquattro]

I think the overall tone of the topic is that nobody is really sure..ok, they look pretty, they can do lightning storms and adjust color a bit. But my primary objective is to grow the blueist and purplist corals I can, long term. I don't believe that LEDs can do that (yet?). Also, the cost over five years, for new lighting setups may be beneficial over five years, but I couldn't afford a LED fixture up front, even if it's going to save me money in the long term. I can however afford 300/yr for bulbs over the next five years without a problem. It's the same principle of my mortgage, I'd save tons if I had that kind of cash
I have run 400w radiums for years, and continue to do so. I can find years worth of awesome tanks running the same config, so I know that these do the job I need done. LED, at this point, is still a lot of speculation on what MAY be a good lighting system 4 or 5 years down the road.
No lighting system is the best for every application, so one needs to decide what is best for their application, and for me, the MHs are the system of choice. Maybe it costs me more over 5 years, but so what? This isn't a budget hobby, and for my money, I know what I'm getting in terms of light. It's tried and true. 5 years from now, I may look at LED when it's affordable by the common peasant, but for now, to me anyway, it's a rich man's lighting experiment!!

[Palmer]

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Palmer

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

good point...