Might have to eat my own words re: quarantine

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by vaporize

Sorry to hear about the losses Brad.

Actually if it is really velvet, chloroquinine phosphate would not be fast enough in treating it. Even cupramine is too slow for most cases, I would actually use the pure copper salt copper sulfatate in QT. I know how you said copper is bad for the fish in long term but what if there isn't a "long term" for them anymore - it's either you cure them or they are gone.

CP is good for using in the QT when new fish arrives, I've seen places that treat it on all new shipments; the speed it can get to the fish is questionable though.

Formalin is basically a burning agent, whatever it can burn in the water or on the fish, it kills. Formalin alone does not cure MV in most cases and it takes off fish's slime coat. It should not be used if fish has open wounds either or it kills them.

MV is one of the reasons why people QT their fish

Agreed, the meds were to late to save the heavily affected fish. If I had it 10 days ago, I could have probably saved them all. I'll be using it though for all future fish before they go in the display tank.

[reefme]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

In the US. Big bucks, and I bought enough to treat the pacific ocean

Can you share me some. Just in case my Atlantic ocean crash on me. I only know how to use paypal.

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Originally Posted by Myka

Where do you get the info that Formalin is worse for fish than copper?

Compare the health effects of Formalin(burns, blindness etc) to the health effects of copper(irritation etc). Here is some info from the MSDS for 37% formalin.

ACUTE HEALTH EFFECTS

Swallowed:

Toxic if swallowed.

Will cause burns to the mouth, mucous membranes, throat, oesophagus and stomach. If sufficient quantities are ingested (swallowed) death may occur.

The methanol stabilizer in solutions is a cause of visual impairment and possible permanent blindness.



Eye:

Will cause burns to the eyes with effects including: Pain, tearing, conjunctivitis and if duration of exposure is long enough, blindness will occur.



Skin:

Toxic by skin contact.

Will cause burns to the skin, with effects including; Redness, blistering, localised pain and dermatitis.

The material is capable of causing allergic skin reactions and may cause skin sensitisation. Toxic effects may result from skin absorption..



Inhaled:

Toxic if inhaled.

Will cause severe irritation to the nose, throat and respiratory system with effects including: Dizziness, headache, in-coordination, chest pains, coughing, respiratory paralysis and or failure.




It only takes 60 to 90ml of it ingested to kill a human.

When you do a Formalin bath on a fish you are burning off the protective slime layer, burning it's eyes, mouth, gills, throat and stomach.

With a FW bath non of these things occur.

With a copper treatment the fish is exposed to 0.26mg/l of ionic copper. Fish can survive exposures over 0.45mg/l of ionic copper.

Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught... so their lives are already shortened considerably. Exposing them to a little copper for a short time is not going to do to much, a lot less than the damage inflicted by the parasites. The problem with copper is that people don't generally have a reliable way of testing the concentration so they over/under dose. Sadly the fish usually dies either way.

Cheers,
Tim

[Myka]

Tim,

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

Copper also binds with carbonates and precipitates out of the water column. If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal. Copper is not compatible with Prime or AmQuel as those products will convert Cu+2 to Cu+ which is much more toxic and will often be lethal. Copper also stresses the fishes' systems enough that it can make the fish susceptible to other diseases.

With formalin, the fish is only exposed for a short time (45 to 60 minutes). Formalin is compatible with AmQuel and Prime, although the addition of ammonia detoxifiers are not needed in a bath anyway. The toxicity of formalin doesn't change in reaction to pH (or alkalinity). There is a much bigger difference between the treatment range and the LC-50 of Formalin in comparison to copper. The LC-50 of formalin is many times the concentration of typical baths. [Here's a study]

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated.

Originally Posted by TimT

Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught...

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Myka

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by Myka

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

[marie]

Originally Posted by vaporize

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

I treated both of my potters angels with cupramine for 14 days with no problems. Copper will cause a decrease in appetite in all fish though

[hillegom]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by hillegom

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

The thing is, the guys that catch these fish we enjoy are fathers and husbands, trying to feed their families. Now on average, they probably get 0.10 per fish on the beach from the local wholesaler. Now economically, they have to think that using a hook to catch a single fish will take what, 5 - 10 minutes on average (try it in your tank ). But, if they blast the reef head with CN, they'll get 50 fish dazed and confused, ready to be picked. That might mean the difference between rice and meat for dinner. mostly, these countries have little knowledge or concern for the environment, and see only what they can make today and the immediate future. Sure, there are programs to teach net fishing, and some orgs supply nets, and yes, some fish are actually caught that way. But for the fishermen to make decent money, and to supply the global demand for fish, they just are not catching sinlge fish on a hook in any appreciable volume. Some fish yes, clowns are easy to catch, some bottom dwellers, etc, but many fish can only (easily) be caught with a bottle of CN.
Is this 75%?? No idea, but I'm sure it's a lot higher than most people are aware...IMO

[Myka]

I have a friend from Bali that used to work as a fisherman for the aquarium trade. I asked him all about it years ago, and he confirmed that cyanide was still used there, although it was frowned upon even within the fishermen. He figured the number would be closer to 10%.

I think 75% is outrageously exaggerated. It would be nice if someone did an undercover analysis of the fish collection for the aquarium trade. We might learn all sorts of interesting (and scary) things...