Yaaaaawn....

[Snaz]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I've been trying to future proof that by keeping a large supply of rotting shrimp in continuous supply in the sump. I know it's making this take way longer, but I want to create enough of a bacterial base on my dead rocks that I could put in a couple of large fish and already have the waste eating engine needed to support them from day one. On the upside, it's breaking my skimmer in like nobody's business.



I have a sad little 5 gallon pico reef that I ripped off from reef builders. I call it "eco-reef ghetto". However, it is growing two SPS frags pretty well, even with no water testing and 100% water changes whenever I feel like it.


Water test this morning... I clearly have 0.25ppm nitrites! yesterday it was way higher, so I'm on the right end of the curve! I also inoculated the tank with a couple of pieces of seed live-rock that I bought from one of the bigger stores, so I'm getting a pretty fierce diatom bloom too.

But once you stop dosing dead shrimp won't the bacteria die-off cause a mini cycle?

[Seriak]

Originally Posted by Snaz

But once you stop dosing dead shrimp won't the bacteria die-off cause a mini cycle?

He is hoping the large fish he introduces will balance with the dead shrimp removal.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by troni

Hold on is that your first piece of live rock?

It was yeah, but I have already removed it. Stupid thing sprouted three teeny weeny baby aiptasia after a week. Last time I buy rock from a big store's holding tank. I think I got it out before they were big enough to spread thankfully.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Snaz

But once you stop dosing dead shrimp won't the bacteria die-off cause a mini cycle?

I'm not sure that could be a problem. Once the source of ammonia in the form of rotting shrimp is removed, The bacterial population in the tank will be as high as it ever will be. Once the food source is removed and some of them start dying off, any decomposition from those cells will only prolong the food source of the others and be instantly consumed.

You only end up with a new cycle if you add more ammonia to the water than there are bacteria to consume, which would likely happen if I were to dump say 20 frozen shrimp in there right now, or add a big dirty fish without removing the shrimp first.

[troni]

You need live rock to seed your base rock. Live rock has a lot of beneficial bacteria and life in it your not getting any other way. I'm not sure if you can have fish in it yet. Someone with more experience than I will chime in.

[Zoaelite]

Adam have you added any seeded sand, small pieces of actual live rock or bacterial supplements (ZEOvit ZEObak Micro-organism Solution, Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 Aquarium Additive or Prodibio Bio Clean)? All of these will dramatically speed up your cycle and ensure you don't have a monoculture of bacteria going.

If you need some sand shoot me a PM, I'm free until Friday then I'm off to the beach!!

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by troni

You need live rock to seed your base rock. Live rock has a lot of beneficial bacteria and life in it your not getting any other way. I'm not sure if you can have fish in it yet. Someone with more experience than I will chime in.

I have just over 200 pounds of marco rock, which starts off dead as moon rock, but it can be cycled just like any other filter. It's true that live rock is generally better, but it's also notorious for bringing in pests and nasties. My last tank was pretty much ruined by an aiptasia plague that got out of control, and I'm going to do everything possible to prevent that from happening again.

The bacteria families that turn ammonia into nitrite and then nitrite into nitrate are ubiquitous in the environment, they're on your skin, on the ground, generally in the ether. If you fill up any vessel of water (fresh or salt), provide some flow, a surface for them to colonize, and a source of ammonia, you will eventually get a functioning nitrifying bacterial filter - assuming you're not starting in a completely sterile environment that is. However, that takes a long a$$ time without help, as you need to wait for an initially tiny starting population of bacteria to expand enough to measurably process waste. That's why there are products that claim to add large populations of the desirable bacteria from the start to get things going, like Dr. Tim's and Prodibio start-up. I did add 250ml of Dr. Tim's when I started, and I think it probably got me over my ammonia hump a few days earlier than it otherwise would have, but it didn't seem to help one lick with the nitrites. Maybe all the nitrite eaters in the Dr Tim's starved to death before there was enough in the water for them to consume or something.

Either way, you can get a biological filter that is totally appropriate for both corals and fish without ever adding any real 'live' rock, it just takes waaaaaaaay longer for things to stabilize.

What you don't get any of with a freshly cycled tank full of previously dead marco rock, is anaerobic denitrifying bacteria in the deepest pores of the rock that take nitrates (the end process of nitrification) and break it down into nitrogen gas. So in my case, my nitrates will continue to rise until I find some other way of removing them. You also don't get any of the small nearly borderline microscopic crustaceans and worms that fill the ecological niches between the fish and the bacteria, or any of the micro and macro algaes that add nitrogen fixing capacity, diatoms, fungi, viruses, or much diversity in bacterial populations that works to keep things stable. Basically, you have a filter, and not an ecosystem. For that you need an outside seed source, which is why I added a small piece of really fresh rock from a local store (it hadn't even finished curing yet) so that I could kick start the diatom bloom that every tank goes through. I only got a tiny piece because I've been burned before and I don't trust any rock that's spent time in a large, retail rock holding facility, as those places are literally aiptasia factories. Lo and behold, this one sprouted aiptasia within a week of going in my tank, so it was turfed. It was enough time for the diatoms to do their thing though.

What I will be doing to create the 'ecosystem', is adding 50 more pounds of live rock from Walt Smith that is being ordered for me directly from Walt Smith. That is to say that the rock I'll put in my tank will have not touched water between leaving Walt Smith's facility, and going in my tank. It will be uncured when I put it in, which is why I've heavily pre-cycled 200 pounds of marco rock, which will, fingers crossed, be enough of a filter to keep ammonia levels in my tank down while the walt smith rock cures, which will prevent as much extra die-off as possible.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Adam have you added any seeded sand, small pieces of actual live rock or bacterial supplements (ZEOvit ZEObak Micro-organism Solution, Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 Aquarium Additive or Prodibio Bio Clean)? All of these will dramatically speed up your cycle and ensure you don't have a monoculture of bacteria going.

If you need some sand shoot me a PM, I'm free until Friday then I'm off to the beach!!

yah, other than the Dr. Tim's I started out with, I also added a bunch of prodibio bio clean. buuuuut, if you've got a handful of sand you'd like to share I would gladly take you up on that offer. The more complete my filter system is before my live rock gets here, the better.

ETA: the prodibio that I had was hella old and had been with our furniture in storage since September. There's a really solid chance there wasn't a living thing left in it, which is why I didn't mention it before.

[troni]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I have just over 200 pounds of marco rock, which starts off dead as moon rock, but it can be cycled just like any other filter. It's true that live rock is generally better, but it's also notorious for bringing in pests and nasties. My last tank was pretty much ruined by an aiptasia plague that got out of control, and I'm going to do everything possible to prevent that from happening again.

The bacteria families that turn ammonia into nitrite and then nitrite into nitrate are ubiquitous in the environment, they're on your skin, on the ground, generally in the ether. If you fill up any vessel of water (fresh or salt), provide some flow, a surface for them to colonize, and a source of ammonia, you will eventually get a functioning nitrifying bacterial filter - assuming you're not starting in a completely sterile environment that is. However, that takes a long a$$ time without help, as you need to wait for an initially tiny starting population of bacteria to expand enough to measurably process waste. That's why there are products that claim to add large populations of the desirable bacteria from the start to get things going, like Dr. Tim's and Prodibio start-up. I did add 250ml of Dr. Tim's when I started, and I think it probably got me over my ammonia hump a few days earlier than it otherwise would have, but it didn't seem to help one lick with the nitrites. Maybe all the nitrite eaters in the Dr Tim's starved to death before there was enough in the water for them to consume or something.

Either way, you can get a biological filter that is totally appropriate for both corals and fish without ever adding any real 'live' rock, it just takes waaaaaaaay longer for things to stabilize.

What you don't get any of with a freshly cycled tank full of previously dead marco rock, is anaerobic denitrifying bacteria in the deepest pores of the rock that take nitrates (the end process of nitrification) and break it down into nitrogen gas. So in my case, my nitrates will continue to rise until I find some other way of removing them. You also don't get any of the small nearly borderline microscopic crustaceans and worms that fill the ecological niches between the fish and the bacteria, or any of the micro and macro algaes that add nitrogen fixing capacity, diatoms, fungi, viruses, or much diversity in bacterial populations that works to keep things stable. Basically, you have a filter, and not an ecosystem. For that you need an outside seed source, which is why I added a small piece of really fresh rock from a local store (it hadn't even finished curing yet) so that I could kick start the diatom bloom that every tank goes through. I only got a tiny piece because I've been burned before and I don't trust any rock that's spent time in a large, retail rock holding facility, as those places are literally aiptasia factories. Lo and behold, this one sprouted aiptasia within a week of going in my tank, so it was turfed. It was enough time for the diatoms to do their thing though.

What I will be doing to create the 'ecosystem', is adding 50 more pounds of live rock from Walt Smith that is being ordered for me directly from Walt Smith. That is to say that the rock I'll put in my tank will have not touched water between leaving Walt Smith's facility, and going in my tank. It will be uncured when I put it in, which is why I've heavily pre-cycled 200 pounds of marco rock, which will, fingers crossed, be enough of a filter to keep ammonia levels in my tank down while the walt smith rock cures, which will prevent as much extra die-off as possible.

makes sense, i understand. curious to know how this works out.