Hospital tank set up advice, please comment on plan

[Delphinus]

Ugh. Thanks for the all the replies. I have to say it makes my head swim though. So one the one hand butterflies are sensitive to hyposalinity. On the other hand butterflies are sensitive to Cupramine. Aaaaaaaa!

What's completely bewildering to me is that I had them for over 18 months, ich-free, in a tank where one of the tangs had occasional spots on and off for 18 months, but never more than a half-dozen individual white spots, so was never a huge concern to me. Now that fish is in another tank and completely ich-free, and these guys have a nice large tank to themselves so you'd think they'd have less stress, but when the spots come back they are really bad.

Is 20g big enough for 2 butterflies? When I hear stuff like 90g QT/hospital tanks I start to wonder that treating two butterflies in a 20g is a recipe for more trouble since clearly they just stress out over little things.

The tank is not a full blown reef. In fact, there is nothing in there except the 3 fish (2 butterflies and a tiny eel, who completely ignore each other), live rock, the occasional snail. Would there be any benefit in rehoming the eel into his new tank and then simply lowering the SG in this tank to something like 1.019-1.021? Recognizing that this will not kill the ich, but, 1) it seems to me nothing kills ich anyhow, it's always there, just not able to infest fish when they are healthy; and 2) this way they are in their home, comfortable, still eating, etc. Then I shore up the UV and maybe garlic the food, or add vitamins or whatever .. and see what happens?

My hesitation is that I did try hypo on some pyramid butterflies a couple years back when I bought them and they developed ich. That episode was a complete failure. If they're just going to die anyhow then is it kinder to let them die in their home as opposed to speeding it up in a doomed attempt at treatment in a 20g ???

[Myka]

I didn't read everyone else's replies (too many), but how big are these Butterflies Tony? I'm not sure 20 gallons is big enough...

Personally, I don't use copper on any fish. I will use Formalin before copper. At least Formalin will treat a wider variety of disease (including Ich if you really want), and Formalin is only a dip. That said, I don't use either treatment for Ich. I use hyposalinity. Butterflies are sensitive to pretty much anything, but hyposalinity is easier to turn around than copper treatment.

If you are worried about the AquaClear intake put a sponge over it. Imo, the AquaClear power filter is the best and easiest option to use on a QT.

I recently described my general QT procedures on a different thread. Here's a copy n paste (with some editing for you).

Equipment:
~ Tank
~ Heater
~ Powerhead
~ AquaClear power filter
~ PVC pipes
~ Carbon
~ Seachem Prime
~ Seachem Ammonia Alert; and/or
~ Salicylate ammonia test kit (API is preferred, Elos and Salifert not compatible with Prime)


Use water from the display tank to fill up the quarantine tank (doesn't matter if the water is infected because apparently so is the fish, right? hehe). The filter floss media I use in the sump in my display tank fits into the AquaClear with a bit of trimming. I use the used media from the display tank to "seed" nitrifying bacteria to the QT. Use two pieces of media, one new one and one used one. Once a week replace the older one with a new piece. When used water and used media are used to seed a QT fish can be placed into the tank as soon as you're sure the temperature is correct and stable.

If medications are being used I will dose the QT with Prime. Most medications will kill nitrifying bacteria so the seeded media is a moot point in the power filter - just use new media.

For Ich I don't medicate, I use hyposalinity so a refractometer is required. Google "marine ich hyposalinity" for more info on that.

The Prime is to de-toxify ammonia. The Ammonia Alert is to indicate if you need to add more Prime (or do a water change) to lower the ammonia. Ammonia is your biggest concern in a QT, and is why a person would be concerned about nitrifying bacteria. No nitrifying bacteria (due to "freshness" of tank or because of medications) and ammonia will be soon to come. You need to use a salicylate test kit to test for ammonia as the Nessler types will give you a "false" ammonia reading when using Prime. I like to use the Ammonia Alert (which I find is surprisingly accurate) in addition to daily testing for ammonia. Ammonia is so deadly and kills so quickly that it is very much worth the double check.

Use carbon in the power filter to remove medications when finished so you can monitor the fish's health post-medication for a week or two sans medication before re-introducing to display.

For Ich, I use the typical 6 week hyposalinity treatment.

[Delphinus]

Thanks M, great post. I was looking for that thread last night but in my state (just a lot of things going on right now, my dad's in the hospital atm) I didn't give myself enough time to actually find it.

The butterflies are not huge but they are not tiny either. I would call them in about 3". I'm starting to have serious doubts that treating them in a 20g is advisable. Unfortunately it's all I've got. I had a 36" long 30g which would have been better but it was dropped and the bottom is cracked and it's just sitting there taunting me waiting for me to find enough crap to load up the truck to take to the landfill.

I'm also starting to doubt whether the problem with the butterflies may be in fact each other. With the removal of the other fish the social dynamic is of course different, it's like the old married couple who after 30 years the last kid moves out of the house and they become empty nesters and then all of a sudden realize they can't stand each other's company but they never noticed this before because things were always just too busy. Don't know for sure if this is the case but I'm left to wonder. There is nobody to pick on them except for each other. The eel is afraid of his own shadow and spends his day hiding in a rock only to occasionally peek out, see his own shadow is still there, and then scurries back into his cave. So I don't see how it could be him that stresses the fish.

Quick question, how long does it take to seed a sponge with nitrying bacteria? Is a couple of days going to suffice or does it need more time than that?

I'm wondering if I should separate them, take the one that is more afflicted, treat him alone in the 20g, and see if the other one recovers on his own in the big tank. If he does then I know that it is the pairing that is the problem and I then take steps accordingly (sell one or both or something along those lines).

[George]

Paul,
I probably missed something. But why you only lower your salinity to 1.018? Since you know 1.018 won't kill ich and you dose copper anyway. Why bother with that salinity and just leave the salinity at normal level.

[Gooly001]

Hi George,

Good question. It is our belief that fish exert energy on osmosis; extracting freshwater from saltwater to drink, so the reasoning for the lower salinity is to help the fish NOT to overexert it's energy on diffusing the saltwater but to allow it to have as much energy as possible to fight the disease that it is needing to combat.

However, on the opposite side, if the fish is treated in total fresh water for a prolonged period of time it will explode with freshwater in it's system.

So to summarize, 1.018 won't kill the ich but will help the fish reserve it's energy on fighting the parasite as oppose to having to use it's energy desalinating.

Cheers,

Paul

Originally Posted by George

Paul,
I probably missed something. But why you only lower your salinity to 1.018? Since you know 1.018 won't kill ich and you dose copper anyway. Why bother with that salinity and just leave the salinity at normal level.

[Lance]

Originally Posted by OceanicCorals-Paul-

Hi George,

Good question. It is our belief that fish exert energy on osmosis; extracting freshwater from saltwater to drink, so the reasoning for the lower salinity is to help the fish NOT to overexert it's energy on diffusing the saltwater but to allow it to have as much energy as possible to fight the disease that it is needing to combat.

However, on the opposite side, if the fish is treated in total fresh water for a prolonged period of time it will explode with freshwater in it's system.

So to summarize, 1.018 won't kill the ich but will help the fish reserve it's energy on fighting the parasite as oppose to having to use it's energy desalinating.

Cheers,

Paul

Hey guys, I read an interesting article on hyposalinity therapy and some of the benefits aside parasite control, according to the author are:
- acclimation and alleviating the effects of stress
- wounds heal quicker
- some antibiotics work more efficiently in softer water than in full strength
seawater
- conserving metabolic energy