Tang Police or Tang Nazis?

[Magma]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think and they do learn to feel comfortable in an aquarium. My fish got the routine right and they pretty much know the feeding hours and come right at the spot to get fed. They learn to trust us, as well as they learn to trust their environment with time. That is if there is no aggressive fish in there that harras another fish to death, then the fish will be relaxed and learn that they can't be harmed there.

At leat that is from my own observation of my fish. At the begining they are scared and skittish but with a few weeks they get really relaxed. I think with time they get the idea and the stress of being eated goes away.

I think the same way, when you put a new fish into the tank, they hide and dont show there face much, I put in a Royal Gramma and didnt see him for a week, but he slowly started to show his face more and more and now hes fine with me sticking my arms in tank to move corals or whatever needs to be done...

They get used to the captivity now if that lowers the stress of the fish who knows but I think its still there primal instinct to watch there back..

[Lance]

I just knew this article would bring out some some good stuff.

[Magma]

Originally Posted by Lance

I just knew this article would bring out some some good stuff.

is there an online copy of this article? sounds like a good read.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think

I don't know about that, my Border Collies are way smarter than my fish and they're still convinced that there are grizzlies in the backyard

[Lance]

Here you go. I think this works.

http://p0.vresp.com/bDvvro

[asylumdown]

I would say that given that the aquarium trade removes about 1/1 millionth of the fish from the ocean that the commercial fishing industry does every year, and the damage we do to reefs by removing coral absolutely pales in comparison to the damage drag net fishing, or dynamite fishing, or cyanide fishing does to the reefs of the world, that the ethics of how damaging this hobby is to global ecosystems is a totally mute point if anyone here eats tuna.

Reefs in places that have something to gain from having a steady supply of healthy corals and fish to export to the aquarium trade and regulate it accordingly (Australia and Hawaii for starters) can actually benefit from an active aquarium trade. True not all places are like that, but that's why my elegance coral is Australian and not from the Philippines. Most species of fish on reefs reproduce in numbers greater than the niche market of the aquarium trade could really make a dent in, and in the cases where that's not true, it's usually the research that happens as a result of the aquarium trade that helps us find that out.

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.

[Youngster Dan]

Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.

Absolutely. My thoughts as well. I personally believe a fish is better off in the ocean than in my little pretend reef.
Buuuuuut, just to mix it up a little: How do we really know our fishies aren't perfectly happy in their little glass boxes. If we provide them with good water conditions, a healthy diet, suitable tankmates and hiding and swimming areas, they may after all be tickled pink. Fish pretty much run on instinct, and instinct says: eat and don't be eaten. I can provide them with that. So who the hell really knows? I don't pretend to.

[Zoaelite]

Turner, J.W. Jr., Nemeth, R., Rogers, C. 2003. Measurement of fecal glucocorticoids in parrotfish to assess stress. General and Comparative Endocrinology 133 (2003) 341-352

Interesting that 4 pages of debate have happened over an article with a single reference that isn't even relevant to the fish we keep. What base line is drawn for showing stress? Are there any other types of fish that this was tested on? The article is a lacking allot of scientific structure.