Clownfish at Ocean's

[Van down by the river]

Price is usually and indicator. Wild caught are usually cheaper. Sometimes if they are locally bred the price is the same or close.

How do you tell if the fish are captive bred or wild caught?

There is no difference. They are the same fish, sometimes captive bred will be smaller only because they may reach the store at an earlier age. Sometimes captive bred haven't developed their stripes fully.

In the beginning captive bred were paler colored and had some issues with disease resistance; but not anymore. Better breeding,care and feeding methods have dramatically improved over the years. Now we will start to see color strains, and domestication from the commercial breeders.

If you see a tank of like 30-40 (or more) small A. ocellaris, it's a reasonable assumption that they're tank bred

True.
Generally they will be fairly uniform in size, but again not always as runts, and bolder feeders from the same hatch will be different sizes.

Is there a chance they'd show you the waybill?

Forget asking for the waybill, it is not an appropriate question to ask a store owner, REGARDLESS of what some Canreef hobbyists think.
It is the RARE exception that it will be shown and is no indication of the quality or practises of the store. (If anyone feels like wasting allot of time you can search for the previous thread on this)
-Not an attack on you teevee . This was previously a very "hot" debate.

well, the thing is. I can't really trust their word! they seem a bit..shady.....i am sure they'll say anything to sell their fish....they'll just tell me what they think i wanna hear

If you feel you can't trust them why do you buy from them?.....
Use your best judgement and the judgement of other experienced aquarists you do trust.

If you see a "mated pair" i.e., one obvious female, one obvious male (females are larger than males), well ... it takes time for them to pair up... so .. unless they were traded in or something, it seems odd that something like that would come from a breeder.

"Mated pairs" usually don't come from breeders. Why would they give up good broodstock? They are usually wild caught. Taken from the anemone and shipped together. Do I think sometimes they just put a small clown with a big one? Sure, but we will never know the difference.
They come from the exporter in bags that are taped together so the pair remains together.

I'd really like to discourage people from buying these pairs as the removal of productive breeding pairs from the reef seems counter productive to the long term of the hobby. With the removal of two fish we have lost the hundreds of larva and juvenile clowns they produce every month. Also the adults would be more able (than juveniles) to protect the host anemone from predators. Juveniles from the wild will have a lesser impact. Ideally wild caught would be only used for genetic diversity for breeders and all hobbyists would purchase captive bred.

Young clownfish grow quickly and if you don't have the patience to wait for them to pair and mate, then you most likely don't have the patience to raise their young anyways.

[Delphinus]

Originally Posted by Van down by the river

There is no difference. They are the same fish,

The wild distributions do not overlap. Unless there is some more recent documentation that I haven't read, I thought that they were still considered different species. Although personally I do agree that they really ought to be considered a single species but different strains due to the different ranges.

If you feel you can't trust them why do you buy from them?.....

You know, business practise debates aside, no LFS is going to want to be caught in a lie. I think most places, if asked, will be up front about this sort of thing. "Of course they're tank bred." "Of course they're wild caught." If they make a claim that a fish is captive bred and it isn't, they're going to look so incredibly bad that most of them just aren't going make that crazy claim in the first place. "Oh yes, this is a captive bred Moorish Idol. That's why there's only one in the tank." Can you imagine? Any LFS that lies about that sort of thing is going to weather a huge afterstorm. No, I think it's pretty safe to just ask. You don't have to ask who their supplier is, but you can (I think) safely ask if a fish is wild-caught or captive-bred. Assuming that it is one of the species that is commonly available captive-bred. No sense in asking about tangs, for example. But maybe one day that will change, who knows.

"Mated pairs" usually don't come from breeders. Why would they give up good broodstock?

You seem to be disputing what I said... Which is odd, because you're only just agreeing with what I said.

I'd really like to discourage people from buying these pairs as the removal of productive breeding pairs from the reef seems counter productive to the long term of the hobby.

Truth is, I have not seen an obvious wild-collected breeding pair up for casual sale at a LFS for a very long time, and I think this is a good thing. My example was just a cooked example, I was trying to illustrate how you can use your own common sense to guage whether you think clownfish for sale are captive bred or wild caught. I do see fish which I believe to be wild-caught but not mated pairs. One would hope that this is only available under exceptional circumstances (at the very least). Such as a commerical entity looking to increase genetic diversity. But even then, such a goal is attainable without the removal of a productive pair from the wild.

[Van down by the river]

Sorry Delphinus my mistake Peace? ,

When I said there is no difference, I qouted and refered to the question;

How do you tell if the fish are captive bred or wild caught?

My mistake was adding your qoute, as yes their is a difference between the two species. Fin ray count, and more prominent black edging and it is sometimes hard to tell.

Truth is, I have not seen an obvious wild-collected breeding pair up for casual sale at a LFS for a very long time

You are correct in that I have not seen Percula or Ocellaris
pairs here. They do appear on some order lists.
I do see 3-6 Maroon clown pairs a month go between the stores in Vancouver and Alberta.

[Delphinus]

Oh! Ok, now I understand. Yeah, I thought you were responding to the ocellaris vs. percula comment which I made in passing. Ok, all understood now.

But here's my question to you then (maybe straying a little off topic now), but, I can't tell the difference between captive-raised percula and captive-raised ocellaris. Is it true that captive-raised percula lose their more prominent black edging (why would that be)? Or am I just seeing captive raised ocellaris that is just "called" percula? I've never been able to do a successful fin ray count, they're just too quick for me.

On my own pair, I'm still faced with ambiguity because the little buggers have 10 fin rays. Fautin and Allen say that one of them has "11, sometimes 10" fin rays and the other "9, sometimes 10" fin rays (I can't remember which one is which offhand). Anyways so 10 doesn't really narrow it down. It figures ...

cheers

[EmilyB]

The wild caught ocellaris I have look vastly different from the tank raised at Pisces.

[Quinn]

Are we sure ocellaris and percula are actually different species?

I still don't know what kind of clowns I have.

[Bob I]

Originally Posted by EmilyB

The wild caught ocellaris I have look vastly different from the tank raised at Pisces.

I have the same observation, and more. I have seen tanksful of Ocellaris, Maroon, and Tomato Clowns at both Pisces, and Big Al's. They were supposed to have been bred in Edmonton. I am wondering if anyone knows anything about this operation? It seems odd to have Edmonton as the hotbed of clownfish breeding in Canada.

In those tanksful of clownfish there were a number of fish that would probably not have survived natural selection in the wild. Some looked runty, while some had odd markings. Most did not exhibit the same coloration I was used to from wild caught specimens. It was noted, however, that the coloration improved drastically with age.

I also found in the two I purchased a marked difference in behaviour from wild caught clowns I have had in my tanks. They just appeared to be stupid. However, I am led to believe that most fish behaviour is inherited, and had they lived they would probably have become smarter. They did have a behaviour I had never observed in wild caught fish in that both jumped out of their tank and died.

For what it is worth that is my story on tankbred clownfish.

[Quinn]

It seems odd that Edmonton would be the hotbed of anything.

[Bob I]

Originally Posted by teevee

It seems odd that Edmonton would be the hotbed of anything.

Very true, but would it not seem appropriate for Edmonton reefers to know something about this breeding facility? One would think someone would be able to arrange a tour, or is all a big secret Does anyone know anything

[TANGOMAN]

Why would the stupidity of these fish surprise you Bob. Considering their origin... .
I couldn't resist that one !!!!
Before you Edmontonians go slammin' me for that statement I must warn you, I am Ukranian and I have lived in Edmonton. I like goin up there. I like comin' back too though...
Now there's a new beer comercial: I-AM-UKRANIAN