mandirians

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by teevee

i would not trust a survey of typical reef aquarists to tell me how big of a tank is required to keep these guys alive.

What would you trust then? Personal experience? A fishie book? I think a survey of 40 or 50 mandarin owners would be a rather reliable source. Should I take mine back and trade for a book also?

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

What would you trust then? Personal experience? A fishie book? I think a survey of 40 or 50 mandarin owners would be a rather reliable source. Should I take mine back and trade for a book also?

sorry mate, didn't mean to sound hostile there. i'm just suggesting that i would rather follow the recommendations of the "experts" (grain of salt there, of course), who've spent many years studying these animals, versus a group of hobbyists, who mean well, but of whom many are making inferences and judgements based on flawed logic. i expect out of that 40 or 50 who responded (i am not familiar with this poll), a fairly high proportion are perhaps basing their logic on their relatively short time in the hobby, are attempting to justify their own keeping of the fish in such a small tank, perhaps for a rather short period of time, etc. unfortunately, it is adaptive for human beings to summarize and make assumptions - however this means that often, statistics are skewed and are based on shaky (content) validations.

let me assert that i have never kept a mandarin, and that i am very much a newcomer to this fine hobby as well. however i feel i have done a fair bit of research on dragonets in particular, largely due to my desire to understand why an individual i know managed to kill two in the course of a few months. i am basing my judgements completely on second-hand experience, the majority of which i feel to be the result of reliable and valid tests. that said, i would be happy to see evidence suggesting the smaller tank sizes mentioned may in fact be sufficient for keeping a mandarin for an extended period of time.

[Samw]

Had mine from the very beginning 1.5 years ago. She's overweight (see bulge) and there are still too many pods running around the tank. Its a 38G tank (No refugium). What do you mean by flawed logic? I find that statistics are skewed on the pessemistic side. In other words, there are lots of people who are in the hobby temporarily or aren't serious and they tend to kill things and thus you get statistics that have high failure rates.

[Aquattro]

I suppose I should add that the respondants to the poll/survey did not all indicate success in keeping mandarins. I think more of them actually lost the fish, and in indicating tank size, seems to point at the 40g as being a boundary in the success/failure of long term survival. Of course other aspects were included such as maturity of the tank, amount of LR, etc. All else being equal, the 40 still seemed to be a cutoff point.
Sam, I think we can squeeze the 38g under the wire

I also like to argue against anyone taking a fish back to a LFS. The new owner can and may take steps to ensure the health of their new charge...the LFS almost certainly won't. Might as well smash a big rock on it's head (no offence Bev) rather thatn take it back to the store. The last place a fish should ever be is in a pet shop...nasty places!!

[Quinn]

i'm not really up on stats, i don't actually take a formal stats course until next fall. simply put, it's too easy for the results of these polls to be skewed.

however, i was not familiar with many success stories involving mandarins in smaller tanks. i may have to reevaluate my opinion on this.

edit:

upon reading reef_rafs update, i must comment. as noted, i am not familiar with this poll. however if the majority of the respondents said "i had a mandarin in a ~40 gallon tank and it died", and one or two individuals said "i have one in a ~50 gallon and it's healthy", this does not prove that 40 gallons is the cutoff. as an example, a survey in canada must include the responses of 6000 individuals (as i recall) to be counted as valid. a survey of 50 individuals is hardly representative.

as for returning fish, let me explain why i support this action - understanding that the conditions at the LFS are worse than in the aquarists tank, and that the fish will be purchased by yet another misinformed hobbyist, i feel by returning the fish, you are making a statement to the LFS. this also means you become yet another informed hobbyist. the more informed hobbyists, the less fish will die, the less will need to be imported, the less will be removed from the reef. this may be a little extreme, but in the interest of maintaining adequate reproductive stock to provide for future generations, i feel it is essential. of course, i also feel the government should institute a permit system for individuals wishing to keep animals - i think i could almost be classed as an extremist - but it is the responsibility of human beings to take care of the creatures we share the planet with, not to abuse them. being educated is the first step.

all of a sudden, a discussion over a mandarins survival in a smallish tank becomes a debate over the ethics of pet-keeping.

[Bob I]

all of a sudden, a discussion over a mandarins survival in a smallish tank becomes a debate over the ethics of pet-keeping.

I think (my opinion of course) that you have too much free time.

[Bob I]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

What would you trust then? Personal experience? A fishie book? I think a survey of 40 or 50 mandarin owners would be a rather reliable source. Should I take mine back and trade for a book also?

Spot on, old chap.

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by rcipema

I think (my opinion of course) that you have too much free time.

i have a desk job. and i type quite quickly.

[Aquattro]

teevee, by the statement "but it is the responsibility of human beings to take care of the creatures we share the planet with, not to abuse them", I expect you'll be selling your tank? Keeping ANY fish in a glass box, regardless of size, is abusing that animal....period.
Since I'm not an extremist AND I have a selfish streak, I can live with providing what I pretend is adequate living quarters for my living decorations; since you are an extremist (self-proclaimed) and apparently feel that it is your responsibility to care for these creatures, why do you have a glass cage for them? You aren't a biologist, and you most likely won't contribute any new knowledge to the scientific community by keeping captive animals. You will learn a lot more by watching reef shows on TV and reading books about them.
Basically, you want to have a cool looking decoration with moving things in it.

Please don't take this personal, as I am attacking all hobbyists. There is so much hypocrisy in this hobby and I get annoyed by it. If the hobbyist claiming to love these creatures so much actually did, the last thing they would do is cage them in a box.

Did I get off track from the mandarin thread? Sorry I just have some free time on my hands today....

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

teevee, by the statement "but it is the responsibility of human beings to take care of the creatures we share the planet with, not to abuse them", I expect you'll be selling your tank? Keeping ANY fish in a glass box, regardless of size, is abusing that animal....period.
Since I'm not an extremist AND I have a selfish streak, I can live with providing what I pretend is adequate living quarters for my living decorations; since you are an extremist (self-proclaimed) and apparently feel that it is your responsibility to care for these creatures, why do you have a glass cage for them? You aren't a biologist, and you most likely won't contribute any new knowledge to the scientific community by keeping captive animals. You will learn a lot more by watching reef shows on TV and reading books about them.
Basically, you want to have a cool looking decoration with moving things in it.

Please don't take this personal, as I am attacking all hobbyists. There is so much hypocrisy in this hobby and I get annoyed by it. If the hobbyist claiming to love these creatures so much actually did, the last thing they would do is cage them in a box.

Did I get off track from the mandarin thread? Sorry I just have some free time on my hands today....

we've all got free time. except bob. he strictly rations his canreef posting time, day by day.

of course i agree, i am a bit of a hypocrite (maybe more than a bit). and i think this discussion has lost all direction and is rapidly sinking into two people defending notions they can't define but i guess it's at matter of not keeping the fish at all, keeping the fish in relatively comfortable quarters, or keeping them in stressful conditions until they succumb. so i guess i still feel that regardless of how big the tank needs to be, the hobbyist should research their livestock before they buy.

come to think of it, most fish aren't too smart. i think *some* lack the capacity to understand their circumstances. most of these animals operate almost completely on instinct... of course, this negates my entire argument... so how about them there playoffs eh?