New Life Spectrum

[George]

My question with this kind of foods is about dosage. For chloroquine or metro to work properly, you have to have the correct dosage. How can you make sure your fish have enough medication? Or in an unlikely event, too much?

[asylumdown]

Sigh. What a phenomenally bad idea. If you're between a rock and a hard place and facing the loss of prized livestock, then sure, this makes sense. Thousands of amateur aquarists throwing heavy duty medications in to a reef without even having a definitive diagnosis of what they think they're treating, however, is asking for trouble.

Best case scenario - C. irritans is completely resistant to whatever medication is in the ich food within 5 years and the people who really need this tool lose it forever.

This is an excuse to have lazy quarantine procedures.

[Nate]

Sigh, I suspected this was coming. As someone that has been in times of desperation, I figured something that might help someone in a bad "spot" (lol) would be a welcome addition.

Stores and aquarists need to educate educate educate!

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Sigh. What a phenomenally bad idea. If you're between a rock and a hard place and facing the loss of prized livestock, then sure, this makes sense. Thousands of amateur aquarists throwing heavy duty medications in to a reef without even having a definitive diagnosis of what they think they're treating, however, is asking for trouble.

Best case scenario - C. irritans is completely resistant to whatever medication is in the ich food within 5 years and the people who really need this tool lose it forever.

This is an excuse to have lazy quarantine procedures.

Also... Did you not consider that this could be fed to fish in quarantine?

[asylumdown]

I don't think you should be able to get access to those drugs without a prescription from a vet, after the parasite's identity has been confirmed by someone with more expertise than "I think I see some spots". There are a few people who know what they're doing and will welcome this as an additional tool in their arsenal, but they're not the target market for this product. The target market for this product is the thousands of newbies who set up a tank, go to the LFS and buy 15 fish, throw them all in a barely cycled display then come to the forums asking for a magic bullet for the inevitable fall out. Those are the people who spend money both on products like this, and keep the demand for ornamental fish that would otherwise have natural life spans measured in decades so high.

That ugly side of our hobby is something I made peace with a long time ago as I both had my own learning curve and benefit from the market it creates. I also don't normally care about what other people do, but these are serious medications and the consequences of using them improperly affects everyone - from ornamental fish owners to managers and end users of multi-million dollar aquaculture facilities. People have been using chloroquine in reefs for a while, but until these products, you had to be pretty motivated to get it and figure out how to dose it. The kind of people who would put in the effort are a tiny fraction of dedicated reefers and the ones who are more likely to do their homework. Now any flustered mom who's 7 year old just HAS to have a nemo and a Dori can pick up a conveniently packaged bottle of malaria medicine. I bet most of the people who buy it won't even know what's in it, or what actually causes 'ich'.

We need to be globally decreasing the inappropriate and uneducated use of drugs in the chloroquine family, not increasing it.

*sigh* soap box away. At best I hope people think twice before doing this:

Originally Posted by Nate

I've used it on two transferred regal tangs (that usually seem to get a few spots when moved) in two tanks, and they both fought it off.

Originally Posted by Nate

Personally I would use the ich medicated food when signs are present, and maybe for a day or 2 when adding new fish.

The internal medicine one I would do a round when adding new fish and use particularly on anything that you are having trouble putting weight on .

That's like prescribing yourself a powerful anti-biotic every time you get a scratchy throat, then only taking a third of the recommended course of pills. You probably didn't need it in the first place, you probably didn't use it long enough to make sure the parasites you'd just exposed to two of the best marine veterinary medicines we have were eradicated, and you never really knew what parasite you were dealing with, or if one was even present in the first place. You couldn't write a better recipe for creating chloroquine and metronidazole resistance in fish parasites.

You're the one saying we need to educate educate educate, and that's the advice you gave. I worry.

[asylumdown]

responsible use of the ich shield would look like this:

Once you start using this medication, you should use it for long enough to break the life cycle of parasite and completely eradicate it from your system. You should not use it for a few days here or a few days there, or for a couple of days after you add new fish. It should be treated like a course of antibiotics prescribed by a doctor, taken to completion, even if you (or your fish) feel better.

If you are using it in a mixed tank where not every fish eats the pellets, or eats enough to get a therapeutic dose, you shouldn't use it.

If you're not sure if your fish are actually infected with C. irritans, you shouldn't use it.

If you're not going to properly quarantine new arrivals and just re-introduce the parasite back in to your display, you shouldn't use it.

Go ahead and use it prohylactically on new arrivals if you can get them to eat it (The LAST thing my powder blue started to eat was pellets, nearly a full year after I got him - my cowfish wouldn't eat a 3mm pellet unless I shoved it down his throat), but do it in a QT tank, and follow the proper protocol, which means making sure they eat it every single day for at least 21 days.

[mikellini]

First of all, your fears are based on the idea that bacteria and parasites develop resistance to medications in a similar manner. They don't. Bacteria multiply at an exponential rate, and are therefore much more likely to mutate in a short period of time than parasites, which have a life cycle on the scale of days, not minutes. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not nearly the same as antibiotic resistance.

Second of all, anyone who reads the packaging will know to give it for 21 days. If your argument is that it shouldn't be sold because people can't read instructions, then we need to start pulling all kinds of crap off the market. I think it's just as likely that someone would misuse chloroquine phosphate in a hospital tank with NO INSTRUCTIONS other than what they found on google.

Thirdly, most of the people that you're worried about won't even buy the product when they see it costs three times as much as other food, and only a little less than a new fish.

No need for a soapbox, or fear mongering. It's just another option

[Nate]

You are correct in your advice for the proper useage of this product.

I can also appreciate that you have educated yourself more than the average aquarist on parasites and diseases within the hobby. I also agree that misuse of these can hurt us all.

But dont you think that there is a place for this medication in the market? I feel like there are certainly situations where these will be used properly by the aquarists. Unfortuantely there will likely be others that could misuse the product.

I wish this food had been on the market last year during the floods when I was scraping together to save a few reef aquariums that were without power for 21 days, in a building that I could not get a generator on. It was weeks of unhealthy fish after that. I still remember how sore I was carrying 10 gallons of salt water up 27 stories over and over. And buying D batteries like it was doomsday.

I agree with your stated issues, but feel like there certainly is a place in the market for this product.

On another note, I have had issues getting meds from vets in the past for aquarium use.

And on another note, I have never had issues getting fish to eat pellets. With the vast array of pellets on the market, more often than I have ever seen it in the past, most fish will eat pellets. Sometimes it is using fish that are eating pellets to teach others to eat them. These fish are usually assertive, but not aggressive eaters in the tank. Something like a tomato clown, or a blue tang, where the fish is excited to eat, can help get others eating. Aggressive eaters, such as sohal tangs, which will often chase fish from the food are not going to help in that situation. There are however some stubborn ones, like your cowfish.

[asylumdown]

Perhaps my post had more of a confrontational tone in reading than it did in my head while typing, but the statement that protozoans develop resistance in a different manner from bacteria is false.

Case in point: malaria is caused by a Protozoa with a lengthy and complex life cycle. Chloroquine resistance appeared in it independently on 3 different continents in the 1950s. It's practically useless as a malaria medication across broad swaths of the tropics today. By numbers and area, resistance to chloroquine is one of the largest single losses of a useful drug in history.

There's no reason to believe C. irritans protozoans won't exhibit the same degree of adaptability.

[mikellini]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Perhaps my post had more of a confrontational tone in reading than it did in my head while typing, but the statement that protozoans develop resistance in a different manner from bacteria is false.

Case in point: malaria is caused by a Protozoa with a lengthy and complex life cycle. Chloroquine resistance appeared in it independently on 3 different continents in the 1950s. It's practically useless as a malaria medication across broad swaths of the tropics today. By numbers and area, resistance to chloroquine is one of the largest single losses of a useful drug in history.

There's no reason to believe C. irritans protozoans won't exhibit the same degree of adaptability.

I would say that has a lot more to do with the drug than with the protozoa. Chloroquine has been shown to cause antibiotic resistance in exposed bacteria. So, you may be right that it (and other first generation antimalarials) could cause resistance in C. irritans. But protozoa and bacteria do not develop resistance in the same way, plain and simple. And despite some 'resistance' developed by plasmodium, floroquinolones are still used in treating malaria, so I wouldn't say they are 'practically useless'.

Anyway, we can get back on topic. I'd like to hear from people who've used this food.

[SteveConn]

The reason I've been resorting to using this medication in my reef is not due to lazy quarantine procedures (not an attack on that comment!). I recently purchased a few fish and quarantined them for 2 weeks. This was cut short because of a power breaker tripping overnight and by the time I noticed the water was becoming toxic, getting worse after getting circulation running again (water was really cloudy and tested positive for ammonia). The quarantine tank was sufficient size (75g) and everything looked great, including the fish the previous evening.
When I went to feed the fish in the morning, they were obviously in distress and one died while I was attempting a water change...this was taking too long, so I decided to put the fish in a freshwater bath (with an airstone, methyl blue and ammonia remover) and then into my display tank. I believe this quick action saved most of the new fish.

About a week ago, my hippo tang (a previous purchase and ich free for months) started developing ich and my powder blue shortly after.

I agree this should NOT be used instead of quarantine, but I also disagree with having to buy it via prescription as that raises issues of timing and will the vet want to see the fish? Finding a vet who even knows about marine fish diseases...

To medicated food itself: I haven't had the time to buy the commercial version, but the mix I have made myself (with chloroquine phosphate) has prevented the parasite from taking hold, giving me time to at least think through options. I also like the idea of targeting infection through food which helps break the cycle.

I also like the broad use of chloroquine for different fish diseases with the caveat of NOT treating fish prophylacticly as I also believe this is a great way to evolve more resistant diseases, however as mikellini posted above, parasites have a different mechanism in developing resistance when talking about ich, and it takes much longer. Still, if you are going to use meds to cure a fish of whatever.. maybe make sure you finished the job before stopping the medication/medicated food to help prevent resistance.

So, yeah, I am trying to justify my use of this drug in food form , but tell me what goes smoothly in this hobby.. when things go wrong it is nice to have a back up plan. Without the option of medicated food, I am certain I would have had losses.

I believe anyone in this hobby should really try to learn as much as they can. I never forget that the fish I have in my tank were swimming freely in a reef in the wild just a few weeks or months ago (with the exception of my clowns) and it is my responsibility to keep them alive, healthy and (hopefully) happy.