Sand bed maintenance in a nano?

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Koleswrath

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6...ed-160389.html

Some pretty lengthy reading material. Post #42 starts the chat about CaCO3 being a phosphate binder. Took me a few days to get through it all but there is a table of contents for convenience.

If you think about it calcium carbonate sand (aragonite) is the same material as live rock right? Calcium carbonate. Live rock binds phosphates and we need to "cook" it if the live rock was previously in a high nutrient situation. The sand binds phosphates in the same way. Unfortunately we can't cook the sand to remove them.

Interesting quote from that thread which explains what happens when you cook live rock:
"the bacteria in the LR are able to break off the bound phosphates that are attached to the calcium carbonate. (i will hunt down the references for this, though it may be more reading for you all). they then incorporate it into their bodies and bind it. the more phosphates the more bacteria bodies. if you get enough bacteria together they can create a fair amount of force. this force pushes the dead bacterium (bacterial flock) out of the LR where it can then be swept away from the LR. this bacterial flock is heavier then water so it falls to the bottom, or if your water flow is strong enough it can get pushed around until 1) it gets removed by the skimmer or 2) settles somewhere. either in a hard to reach low flow area or your sump/fuge. if this is planned then it is all good. if you have more sand in these areas then not so good. the force that the bacteria exert is known as Turgor. this makes LR self cleaning when it comes to phosphates.

this also can occur in the sand, but the problem with sand is that it is contained on every side but the top. so the bacterial flock formed from the LR and the sand just keeps building up in the sand bed till it just gets full. at the point the turgor is pushing the flock up into the water column is when you are able to get phosphate readings from the test kits".

Greg

Thanks for the link. Interesting...Maybe someone with more knowledge might want to chime in.

But I do know I didn't, don't and will never rely on sand bed to take care of my nutrient. And unless someone point a gun at me, I am not going to risk shaking the sand bed. Its just too risky in my opinion.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

But I do know I didn't, don't and will never rely on sand bed to take care of my nutrient. And unless someone point a gun at me, I am not going to risk shaking the sand bed. Its just too risky in my opinion.

What's the concern about "shaking the sand bed". I vacuumed my sand bed a lot when I was cleaning up my nutrient problem in my upstairs tank. The water would turn pretty cloudy, but would clear up completely in about an hour or so. I also dosed MB7, so that probably helped too. In any case, my fish didn't seem to mind, and some of them would be right there by the vacuum end trying to catch any pods that would be disturbed.

[Koleswrath]

You're right on both points.
The OP should siphon as much detritus as possible from the sandbed so as not to rely on the sandbed sinking nutrients which is ultimately finite. (Disclaimer below)

In the case of someone who has not touched a sandbed in years it could be disasterous to go and start stirring things up nilly willy. However, it can be argued that eventually an undisturbed sandbed will cause more issues in the long run and that it would be a good idea to start slowly cleaning small sections at a time.

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

What's the concern about "shaking the sand bed". I vacuumed my sand bed a lot when I was cleaning up my nutrient problem in my upstairs tank. The water would turn pretty cloudy, but would clear up completely in about an hour or so. I also dosed MB7, so that probably helped too. In any case, my fish didn't seem to mind, and some of them would be right there by the vacuum end trying to catch any pods that would be disturbed.

There were times when even putting a frag plug in the sandbed cause spikes. So I leave them in peace And the sandbed won't get overloaded with detritus since nothing settles in my tank (somethings the frags too), thanks to wp40. Infact, the only thing I do in my DT is just clean the glass; no vacuuming, no turkey baster; and no filter socks too.

[Koleswrath]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

There were times when even putting a frag plug in the sandbed cause spikes. So I leave them in peace And the sandbed won't get overloaded with detritus since nothing settles in my tank (somethings the frags too), thanks to wp40. Infact, the only thing I do in my DT is just clean the glass; no vacuuming, no turkey baster; and no filter socks too.

With enough flow some people have reported successful sandbed tanks for 10+ years. BUT........if nothing ever settles in your sandbed you wouldn't have a spike if you put a frag plug in it.

Greg

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

There were times when even putting a frag plug in the sandbed cause spikes. So I leave them in peace And the sandbed won't get overloaded with detritus since nothing settles in my tank (somethings the frags too), thanks to wp40. Infact, the only thing I do in my DT is just clean the glass; no vacuuming, no turkey baster; and no filter socks too.

Spikes of what??

These days my sand is actually pretty clean, with all the circulation, and I have a goby that keeps sifting it. But even he can sometimes create a little "storm" when he pulls sand out from under the rocks. But I don't get any "spikes". Before, when I had the nutrient problem, you wouldn't believe all the detritus crap that I would pull out with the vacuum. After all, it had been "accumulating" there for 10+ years...

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Koleswrath

With enough flow some people have reported successful sandbed tanks for 10+ years. BUT........if nothing ever settles in your sandbed you wouldn't have a spike if you put a frag plug in it.

Greg

By settling, I mean detritus resting on the sand bed and making it look ugly. The sand bed itself has lots of nutrients trapped which will not get released unless you disturb it. And over time, the fauna in the sand bed takes care of it. The fauna is more important to me (pods, bristle worms). Why don't people take out all the LR or give a shake and take out the detritus? I am pretty sure those crevice and crannies can undergo some maintenance too

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Spikes of what??

These days my sand is actually pretty clean, with all the circulation, and I have a goby that keeps sifting it. But even he can sometimes create a little "storm" when he pulls sand out from under the rocks. But I don't get any "spikes". Before, when I had the nutrient problem, you wouldn't believe all the detritus crap that I would pull out with the vacuum. After all, it had been "accumulating" there for 10+ years...

My last bad experience was with nitrate. Sand bed surface remains clean, I just don't wanna peek-a-boo with whats inside, bristle worms are there to keep things in check.

I guess it just comes down to how pristine you want your DT to be. I just like my glass (both inside and outside; I hate when people put finger prints on the glasses), my rocks and sand bed which is visible to the eye to be clean. And crystal clear water. Atleats I know, if I were to care about what's inside those sand bed, I would be thinking hard about the dead spots between and behind the rocks.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

I guess it just comes down to how pristine you want your DT to be. I just like my glass (both inside and outside; I hate when people put finger prints on the glasses), my rocks and sand bed which is visible to the eye to be clean. And crystal clear water. Atleats I know, if I were to care about what's inside those sand bed, I would be thinking hard about the dead spots between and behind the rocks.

Don't we all want crystal clear water, and clean rocks and sand? That's what getting all the nutrients out of your tank is all about. And with zero nitrates and phosphates.

At this time, I no longer vacuum my sand. That's because it is now divided up between 2 tanks, and is not very deep anywhere. Some parts of the bottom are actually bare, because of the water currents. And the gobies do a good job to ensure detritus doesn't build up anywhere.

[Koleswrath]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

Why don't people take out all the LR or give a shake and take out the detritus? I am pretty sure those crevice and crannies can undergo some maintenance too

Definately, this is what people do whey they use a turkey baster to blow the bacterial flock off the rocks. High enough and proper flow can keep the flock from clogging up the rocks as well.