Domolite lime and other lost arts...

[DJ88]

Huh? you sure.. I see a pic of the bag of aragamax.. hmm let me see something.. I think you needed to hit refresh as the image that was there was the drawing. I wrote over it. I bet you still have the old one in your cache. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Look now.(or in a few seconds.. )

And hit refresh on your browser. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]</p>

[Dolf]

I really am interested in this topic. As I have stated I am considering the use of dolomite and because I know the composition and particle size of Mighty White composition through somebody else’s previous post I will be waiting till spring for Crappy Tire to import it. (I will not take chances with the others.) It is sealed in a plastic bag and I would not consider it to be a major problem. I have worked in warehouses where they handle both sealed food and chemical products (though not as nasty as pesticides) and if they consider that we are safe from it then I'm not going to fret over the fish.

Right now I am researching it and came across a post by Randy Holmes-Farley in another forum where he says "After all, where would the magnesium go? It's not being precipitated inside the plant (I presume), so it is likely being actively pumped out of the plant by another protein to maintain normal internal magnesium levels. A 100 gallon tank contains 492 grams of magnesium. To significantly deplete that, the plant would need a huge sink for all that magnesium."

To me this suggests that first, magnesium is not depleted very rapidly " Fortunately for reefkeepers, it is present in abundance in seawater and is depleted only slowly." (From the above link.)

And secondly it seems to me that 492 grams in a 100 Gal tank is a lot. (love how everybody combines metric and imperial measurements these days.) It would seem as though there should be some room for a bit more without affecting the organisms negatively. (I could be wrong as I am not a chemist nor a biologist.) It just seems that with regular water changes there is room for some of it to dissolve. It seems doubtful that a DSB would even dissolve 10 grams of magnesium each week because it would not be very long before you would have no sand bed.

In the same reply Randy suggests using a Hatch kit to test both the magnesium levels and calcium levels and it would be interesting to see the results in a tank with a dolomite bed.

As to the question of how polluted the dolomite may be, I have given it more thought. First, the pollution of the operator using the ground as a toilet should not be a huge problem as the nitrates etc would get taken away in the tank the same as fish waste. If I recall correctly there was even some suggestion that clams even need the nitrates and yes, you could use your tank as a toilet to provide it. (Bad and rotten as that may sound, it would keep others from reaching in your tank [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] .)

The grease would be minimal and as I said there would be very little oil in the finished product when you consider that they would be using a loader with a 5 cubic yard bucket and even if there were a small leak it would provide less pollution to a fifty pound bag of dolomite than I do when I reach in the tank to clean the glass after working on cars. (Yes, I do wash, but there must be some residue.) If you were concerned with the hydraulic fluid you could skim the top of a bucket you poured it into first.

I do not care what they say, there would be a minimal amount of metal in the aragonite. They are not digging it out of the ground with a plastic machine and sand is VERY abrasive to the bucket of any machine. Also they screen the finished product so they can sell sugar fine etc... and they would run it over the same metal screens as the company producing dolomite would. The only difference that I can see is the metal off the crusher at the dolomite mine and even then it is a very small amount when you consider how much product is produced to wear a set of hammers down.

No matter what machine the company pulls the aragonite off the ground with I would bet it is well greased as pins and overhauls are expensive. I am not sure that they have not taken some steps to ensure that no grease gets into the product, but I have never seen a loader or excavator that would not pollute the end product with just a little.

One last chemistry related thread and comment on the dolomite. Here is a quote from aquarium frontiers where the author is talking about limestone versus crushed coral in a reactor. "The limestone was significantly lower than the crushed coral in a wide range of trace elements, including aluminum, boron, chromium, cobalt, copper, iron, phosphorus, silicon, sulfur, titanium and vanadium. Of particular concern to me were the lower concentrations of iron and phosphorus in the limestone compared to the crushed coral I’d been using." And "Comparing the limestone to the Super Calc Gold analysis performed by Bingman...shows the limestone significantly lower in aluminum, copper, iron, manganese, lead, mercury, nickel, silicon and zinc."

Anyhow, the link to the whole article above is right here.

I hope that provides some food for thought. I am not saying that dolomite should be used and I am having some second thoughts about it myself. However, from the info I was able to dig up it does not seem like it would cause a system crash and I found it interesting that it was lower in the heavy metals.

-Danny

On a side note not related to reefs but related to my sanity I keep having a pop-up widow appearing to me that comes up as a rotate…html. If anyone can tell me how to rid myself of this annoyance I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail me or send a PM. Thanks.

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: dan150 ]</p>

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Colour ?

CaCO3 = white
MgCO3 = white
Al2O3 = white (I should know, I lived near a Alumninum smelter for 17 years. This stuff is gross when it is all over you car. )
NaCl = white
SrO (this really doesn't exist like this) = SrCO3 = gray-white when expose to air.

I think we still need a better explaination.

Darren,

I wonder if there is a titanium or platnium excavators or backholes ? Then we would be sure that none of the metals used in processing would be harmful to our tank. Just kidding [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

You have to give it credit that Domolite has been use for a while.

Yes, domolite will dissolve at 7.0. Only thing is that the domolite has to be at a pH of 6.0 to dissolve at the same rate as calcite. So, it is going to dissolve very slowly. BTW, I worked out the numbers and calcium carbonate will start to siginifcantly dissolve at a pH of 7.4. For magnesium carbonate...6.4.

I guess time will tell who is right. Wish me luck !

- Victor.

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>

[DJ88]

Hey Victor,


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Colour ?

Ok that is the colors of the individual compounds, what about in the ratios found in carib sea? How do they interact when the bond to form the aragonite? I am no chemist but I assume that once you molecularly bond a few different compounds they will interact and some properties will change(ie color). And I have no prob with the color of dolomite of caribsea. Once it is in my tank(caribsea) it looks nice and white. That is the least of my concerns. But it seems to bother you.. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] hee hee

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

You have to give it credit that Domolite has been use for a while

Until you had brought it up I hadn't heard of it. I have concidered using silica but not dolomite. To me it is a lawn care product used to raise the pH of the soil. Yes it is white but that is where my thoughts ended.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I guess time will tell who is right

It's not a matter of right or wrong to me. It's is it safe for general use? As I look at it right now it is a game of russian roulette. You may be doing ok but what about the person who has jsut started and loses everything due to chemical contamination of their tank? If it is a fully stocked tank that was switched over and all livestock was lost what do we say then?

[StirCrazy]

It was once again pointed out to me that Caribsea products (ie. sugarsand and argamax) are mined in a quary in the same fashion as southdown and dolomite. so having said this, it stands to reason that there is the same chance of getting contamanation in each of them.

In a different Post I have discovered that Dolomite was one of the substrates of choice for people years ago when the only other stuff you could get was crushed coarl and oystershells, I guess not eveyone had read that or they just skimmed throught it and forgot. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

After a lot more reading last night I decided I will use dolomite and not caribsea in my tank, if some people want to consider this experamental you can, or just unsafe...go ahead, but from about 2 months of researching this, I found that dolomite was widely used befor caribsea came about and there are people still running it on tanks that are 2+ years old with no problems. but like the disclamer reads **make sure you get the right kinda dolomite, one that has not been altered to provide a slow release or any other properties.***

so now the question remains.. why are somany people using the caribsea sand, well because it is new? (we all know how this hobby thrives on NEW) is it beter? ( I don't know about that yet)
Because it is made by an aquarium supply company?
(Bingo, if a aquarium hobby company is making it people will automaticly assume it is better. after all IceCap is the most effecient, and cost effective ballast money can buy.... right? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )
sorry I coulden't resist [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

why are they using dolomite? well it is Cheep (1/10th of the price) It is white (beautifuly white) it is better than caribsea? ( I don't think so but I will hazard to guess that is is just as good.) it has already been provin to be better than crushed coarl or crushed oyster shells in that it has less contaminants in it.

Now I am not saying run out and buy it or don't buy the other stuff I am just saying keepa open mind and don't condem somthing on the basis that it wasen't specificaly sold for fishtanks, or that it is cheeper there for it must not be as good. cuz we all know this doesen't hold water.

Victor, I have one request of you if that is ok, can you find Mg test kit somewhare and test your tank? maby if some one has one when they come over to your house on the weekend they could bring it with them if you don't have one. I would be curious to see what the level is befor and after a water change.

one more thing I feel needs to be pointed out again, in my test between sugarsand and dolomite, the sugarsand added MORE desolved particals to the water colume than the dolomite did. this was also not just a 1 time test I had 8 wine glasses going for 4 seperat tests (much to the wife's dissaproval [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] )and they were all consistant.

Steve

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]</p>

[Troy F]

...after all IceCap is the most effecient, and cost effective ballast money can buy.... right?

I still think so. Of course you have to figure in the cost of bulbs and energy consumption. (sorry couldn't resist [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

Darren, don't slap me for being off topic.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Colour ?

Well, my only fear is that it may contain a form of oxide like rust. If domolite is 58/38 calcium carbonate/magnesium carbonate and it is fairly white. Why does 95-98% calcium carbonate looks so...ivory. I don't know...I thought you would know [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I guess it points out that as pure as arganite is, there is still some foreign compounds in there.

What's the difference between lawn and a coral ? Well, really they are both sensitive to chemicals and petro products. They both need fertilizer (i.e. trace elements). If you have cyanide in the lime, they will kill both the coral and the lawn (and the trees). Domolite lime isn't some stuff that you arbitrarily get from a mining shaft, there are standards since they are also use to grow fruits and vegetables. So, there is a certain quality level...pretty close to fit for human consumption.

In the early 90s, keeping SPS was like playing russian roulette. Only thing was that you knew that there were five bullets in a gun that could carry six. That didn't stop people from trying...at $75-$100 a pop. Today, we have beautiful tanks that have only SPS. Without those pioneers...we would avoid SPS like flowerpots. Without trying, I'll never know if I could succeed.

But, I will get my test kit at J&L tomorrow. Hopefully, it is in stock. I will keep you posted.

- Victor.

[DJ88]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

cyanide in the lime

Cyanide?

I am more concerned with pollutants and other chemicals this dolomite may come in contact with not just at the processing level but at the shipping and storage level.

Dolomite is stored with fertilizers and insecticides. Those prodtucs won't kill your lawn as easily as they will kill your tank. Am I wrong to think that?

Yes caribsea products are costly, I give them that. But they are giving you a written gurantee on each package of No impurities. When a company tells me something in print I will take it as truth. If it isn't I have grounds to go after that company for false advertising.

I think it is great that you are trying out ideas. But when someone new who is just starting in the hobby comes online and asks for help I am leery of sending them off buying something that isn't meant for your tank but should work fine. You yourself even said it is risky. And I have read all kinds of posts specifying on other boards that there are several different kinds of dolomite. And only to use one in particular. I don't want someone new to the hobby to glance over a post see the word dolomite and go rushing out fill their tank up and wipe it out because they bought the wrong stuff.

Maybe I am off base with this but I will NOT put anything in my tank(water) that is not produced or made for an aquarium. I am very passionate about that. If something happens due to a product made for my tank I can approach that company about the failure or impurties in that product. What is Revy going to do if you had fertilizer that seeped in the dolomite and it wiped out a tank of livestock? Laugh? or look at you like you had three heads? I won't put the animals in my care at risk. They are thriving now and I will keep it that way.

I understand you want to try it out. And I say go for it. When a company can say to me that there is no risk of impurities or other substances in the Dolomite and that it is safe and has been packaged and shipped for aquarium use I will then buy it and use it. Not till then. I am not one to risk a single coral or fish's life to a risky substrate.

As for the increse of Mg in your tank. I'd like to see the measurements over time. I do believe that with a proper 4" or greater DSB you will get a low enough pH to dissolve the substrate. I have seen it in my tank and if you look others have as well. This is due to a lower pH at the deepest areas. Will it put enough Mg in the water to cause problems? I dont know. It is only recently that DSB's have come into use. When Dolomite was in use before it was with plenums or on its own but not in the amounts we are putting in now. I searched to find others using it and so far came across you, Steve and possibly one other who are using it at teh moment. Others used it in the past when all that was available was crushed coral and oyster shells. But in that day it was all abotu a thin layer overtop of a UGF or plenum a bit later on. And of those only you are running a DSB(I am correct to assume it is a DSB?). So in effect you will be the first to see if there is an increase in Mg levels.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I will pass on the cyanide part...it was just an example. As for pesticides, that's actually a controlled substance. So, it should not be any where near lime nor is it suppose to spill out. Domolite packaging is actually much better than one would think (like a concrete bag). If domolite gets wet or has a runoff, the concentrated domolite is quite corrosive to green plant life (due to high pH). So, the bags are design to protect that from happening. Besides, if there is going to be any crosscontamination (say fertilizer), then what...1% of your lime will be fertilizer at most ? Even 1% is pretty hard to acheive since it would have to leach past the paper and plastic protective covering of the bag. That bag would be in pretty bad condition at that point...I think you would pretty ignorant to buy that bag.

Come to think of it...there is a little secret that I use when buying lime. I only buy the bags that are not expose to the outside. Usually, these bags of lime are on a crate. A selected number of bags are always touching another bag and never expose to the elements. I pick those ones.

As for a newbee taking this as a defacto standard (Domolite that is). Well, if a newbee is reading this board and research about domolite, then he would be spending the time to see all sides of the story (i.e. if you do a search on RC...there is tons of info on this topic). As you know, bbs are full of different types of people. Some say the true, some don't know what they are talk about, some misread the question and etc. With so many opinions, the newbee isn't go to say...look "Victor" said it is alright....I am going to buy it right now. Victor is not a Dr Ron, Dr Mac, or even a Randy. Why should the newbee believe me in 100% confidence ? I am just one reefer out of many thousands giving my opinion. I believe this is what a board is for and I think a newbee already understands that.

As for magnesium slowly leaching in to the system. Did you know that magnesium slowly precipitates too - to form domolite or just magnite (pure magnesium carbonate) ? It is quite normal and that was one of the proponents for using domolite in the past. Today, salt mixes have higher than normal magnesium levels to compensate. So, regular water changes have been able to replenish magnesium levels. So, what will happen in my tank. The rate of preciptation is dependent on the levels of magnesium in the tank. Higher levels...higher precipitation. So, if the dissolution rate of increase is slow enough, the preciptation and dissolution should find an equilibrium where both are happy.

BUT...we will see. Time will tell. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

- Victor.

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>

[powerreef]

This is a great debate folks and it is nice to see how much research has been put into this subject. I have been keeping a SW aquariums for 19 years and am one of those that used to used Dolomite as a substraight. Now one thing to remember is in those days there was no choice and very little knowledge. Now with the knowledge available know and products I would choose not to use Dolomite. Thier are a number of reasons for this choice , but it boils down to not worth the risk. Thier have been many studies measuring the effect Magnesuim on aquaria, and it has been found that animals exposed to high mag concentrations in SW begin to show significant relaxation (ie: works as anaethesia) and prolonged expose causes mortallity in almost all species. In the oyster farming bussiness Magnesium concentrated SW is used as a shucking aid, as in it causes theoysters and clams to relax to the point to where even if you drenge them out of the water and drop them on the dock they are still wide open.

Another thing that scares me is the effect that Magnesium has on alk and cal. As i'm sure you know magnesium will slow the percipitation of cal.by attaching its ion to the carbonate ion of calcium carbonate. What effect would this have on calcium if it sat in a tank with such high levels of mag. carb.. Another thing to remember is in seawater, more than half of the carbonate ions present at any given point in time are ion-paired to magnesium, and this substantially reduces the free concentration of carbonate ions available to precipitate with calcium.

I geuss what i'm trying to say is that magnesuim at natural levels is good , but at high levels the fact that joins with other minerals and chemicals and produces biproducts is not good. it is also absorbed by most corals and rock in your tanks and can have problems thier to.

Put all that crap together and it say I'll spent the extra 200 on the right stuff. now i dont know if i have made any sence in my ramblings but take it for what its worth.

Mike