Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[Ron99]

HOLY CRAP PEOPLE. STOP BEING STUPID!!!

Sorry to yell and be rude but honestly, use your heads. Most of the stuff below is not in the vaccine and I have no idea where you come up with lists like that. The ingredients in the vaccine are clearly listed on GSKs documentation that has been linked to at least twice in this thread.

And where the hell do you come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that vaccines work? Really? You actually believe that? I suppose we are all dropping dead of small pox? How many cases of the mumps are seen nowadays? In case you don't know the incidence has dropped 99% since routine vaccination started. Seriously. If you want to make comments like that then you have to provide some links to actual evidence it is true. You have all been provided links to actual information that you can check yourself. But you would rather believe a youtube video made at a holistic medicine conference that contains nothing but a bunch of sound bites and no actual information. Who are these people in the video? Let's see their credentials? What is their area of expertise? Are they experts in virology and immunology? If I made a video telling you that you should't eat spinach because it's bad for you and will do more harm then good will you believe me? Or maybe I believe that to much calcium in your system may cause cardiac problems and if you don't want your fish to die you better remove all calcium from your tank water or they might have heart attacks? You'll all just take my word for it right? If you have actual evidence or data supporting any of the nonsense in this thread then please produce it.

Sorry, but this hysteria and completely wrong information is really annoying me. I am all for legitimate debate with actual data and information. Not a bunch of completely incorrect nonsense that has no basis in reality.

Originally Posted by macky

I disagree. Here a lot of good reason why not to get the vaccine.
H1N1 Vaccine ingredients:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol20red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

Just because some of us are healthcare workers doesn't mean that we should have all this **** injected in our bodies. There is virtually no evidence that vaccines work in the first place.

[macky]

Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

[sphelps]

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

[sphelps]

I actually have one more thing to add which is that I find the results from the poll to be quite interesting.

The way I see it as of right now 21 (10%) people are undecided, 81 (40%) people are for the flu shot and 102 (50%) are against it.

This seems about average, half and half on each side of the argument however I always like to consider the Milgram Experiment in these types of polls because the media and majority of health care are pushing for one side of the argument. Many of us consider the information provided by both these sources to be accurate so in a way we look at these sources as a type of authority. The Milgram Experiment demonstrated that the presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance to the point where over 50% of people will do what they are told by such an authority figure even if it means harming other people.

This combined with less than 50% of people voting in favor of the vaccine is what I find interesting. I'm not saying what my personal conclusions are exactly, I'm just saying it's interesting.

[wickedfrags]

By the quality of your posts and supporting arguments you may very well have left readers assuming you got all C's in high school, then straight off to college to become a nurse...this of course may not be the case. Perhaps re-read the quote below...

Originally Posted by macky

I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid.

Well put - read a lot, think for yourself.

Originally Posted by sphelps

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by macky

Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:



Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

Originally Posted by sphelps

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Ron99

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

[Mrfish55]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:



Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.



Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

CRICKEY! do you work for NASA or something, I should have paid more attention in school, apparently I am stupid, I am suffering with the flu right now, think I am going to go find my hockey helmet and ride the short bus to Wal Mart for some meds.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by sphelps

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

No Worries. I don't think I ever said anything was my final point, just that I was getting frustrated and questioning the value of posting here. And I do think that on this subject my many years of work in both medical microbiology and pharmaceutical R&D makes my opinions somewhat more credible then some of the contributors here. You wouldn't ask your accountant for medical advice or your doctor for tax advice would you? I do have knowledge and experience that is directly relevant to the discussion. I'm also trying to post scientifically accurate information so people can make an informed choice rather then relying on fear and the huge volume of misinformation making the rounds.

What might be more useful is for people to post legitimate questions here such as "should I be concerned about the mercury in this vaccine?" which could then be constructively answered as I did above. But just getting on here and posting things like "the vaccine has mercury in it so I'm not taking it and you shouldn't either" is not only unhelpful it is actually harmful and foments more fear and uncertainty without actually informing people or addressing legitimate concerns.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.