L.E.D. vs HALIDE/T5/VHO

[OceanicCorals-Eugene-]

Originally Posted by sphelps

The other day you seemed to agree that 10 years wasn't reasonable, what's changed??

Perhaps changing a ballast is as easy as changing a driver, that's fair enough, but how many drivers are used to drive 250W of LED compared to the number of ballasts for 500W of halide?
How is changing an LED as easy as changing a Halide or T5 bulb? Even the shear number of LEDs to replace in comparison, it wouldn't take much longer to start over. Sorry but if you have to break out a soldering iron it's not that easy. Plus I'd like to talk about actual fixtures not DIY approaches. Like I said let's stay in the real world.

My assumptions were very little, you're assuming way more including price drop when more realistically the LEDs you need to replace down the road will be extinct and difficult to source. You'll have to adapt new types of LEDs into the fixture which will add more complication. Maybe perhaps someone could provide a manual from a supplier of an LED fixture that shows the user how to replace the LEDs? I imagine such thing doesn't exist, for obvious reason.

I think it all comes down to the design of any commercial fixture on how easy it is going to fix. Having quick disconnects on parts would allow the plug and play feature you see in most MH systems now. I still remember before when a MH system had multiple components to it before it would work properly. The same would apply here. until a set standard comes out for LED units and connections we are going to see a ton of ways to do it until a "user friendly" way is discovered. We are already seeing this in some of the fixtures coming out, Ron had mentioned the Maxspect fixtures using quick disconnects for there individual emitters (no soldering there). AI has 3 emitter modules (not as efficient but easy to change out)

Regarding the assumption of LED bulb prices droping is not all that off. LED lighting is moving at an incredibly fast pace. In 2000 the cost of a 5mm high intensity white/blue LED would cost $2.00 each from manufactures and now they cost a few cents. No doubt will the same thing happen with high power 3W + LEDs , look at when the luxeons first came out we were looking at manufacture cost of $10 and look at where is it now. LEDs are unique that they are current driven, so even if the specs on newer LEDs change it would be the total forward V and the amount of current taken thats not going to effect the way you pair up LEDs to drivers and should only take a few minutes to figure out how many LEDs can be in an array from simple math.

Originally Posted by superduperwesman

I say we design LEDs that are easy to replace and make a killing

Watch someone is going to put a patent on quick disconnects now that we've mentioned it for LED purposes.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by superduperwesman

I say we design LEDs that are easy to replace and make a killing

Already being done the Maxspect fixtures are nicely designed in that sense. The individual LED stars are fixed to the heatsink by a couple of screws and the electrical connections are by connectors like computer fans. So to replace them you unscrew the screws, disconnect the wire. screw down the new emitter and reconnect the wiring. A couple of minutes and one screwdriver is probably all you need. Also Bridgelux is developing an interchangeable LED module geared towards home lighting etc. but it could probably be used for aquariums too if it works out.

Originally Posted by sphelps

The other day you seemed to agree that 10 years wasn't reasonable, what's changed??

Perhaps changing a ballast is as easy as changing a driver, that's fair enough, but how many drivers are used to drive 250W of LED compared to the number of ballasts for 500W of halide?
How is changing an LED as easy as changing a Halide or T5 bulb? Even the shear number of LEDs to replace in comparison, it wouldn't take much longer to start over. Sorry but if you have to break out a soldering iron it's not that easy. Plus I'd like to talk about actual fixtures not DIY approaches. Like I said let's stay in the real world.

My assumptions were very little, you're assuming way more including price drop when more realistically the LEDs you need to replace down the road will be extinct and difficult to source. You'll have to adapt new types of LEDs into the fixture which will add more complication. Maybe perhaps someone could provide a manual from a supplier of an LED fixture that shows the user how to replace the LEDs? I imagine such thing doesn't exist, for obvious reason.

I never said that 10 years wasn't reasonable but rather than argue the point I conceded at least 6 years for our modeling of scenarios. Only time will tell what the real lifespan is but given what is known with 40 years of LEDs existence, 10 years is quite possible.

If you keep the junction temperature below 80 degrees C you will have 30% decrease over 50,000 hours. Keeping those temperatures is not hard. The OC spotlights run with heatsinks below 50 degrees and my heatsink is barely warm to the touch (I will try to get accurate temperature readings later). So if we assume degradation is linear then I will have 20% decrease in output/PAR/PUR after 33,333 hours. That is just over 9 years with 10 hours per day of use. Adjust that accordingly depending on your lighting schedule. Light for 8 hours per day and you could see over 11 years with only a 20% decrease. At 12 hours that is over 7.5 years. But if you want to call it 6 years we can do that for now. Let's talk again in six years when I can do some PAR measurements on my fixture

As for changing the LEDs it is all down to the design. See my comments above regarding the MAXspect fixtures. As Eugene mentions, the AI units have 3 emitter modules that are easy to change out and shouldn't break the bank. Here's a teardown of the AI so you can see it:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/03/31/i...aillumination/

And here's something on the Maxspects where you can see one image of how their LEDs are hooked up:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/22/m...ium-led-light/

Both the above would require the use of a screwdriver to replace the LEDs. Real world enough for you Is it more work then replacing a bulb? Maybe a little but not by much. And using a soldering iron to swap wiring is really not that difficult. If you don't want to deal with that I am sure a repair shop could do it for you fairly inexpensively.

With regards to drivers, they should use multiple drivers. Mine has 8 separate drivers. One failing means replacing one driver at $30 rather than a single ballast at $60 to $150 depending on what type of ballast is used.

[sphelps]

That's good news about fixtures already having ways to easily replace the LEDs, I didn't know they where being made like that yet. Sounds like the MAX fixture is going to be somewhat more economical than the AI as it sounds like it takes a more universal LED replacement where as the AI requires replacement sets that can only be purchased from the manufacture. Ideally a standard should be introduced to all these fixtures for an easy screw in replacement or something so various lighting companies can make replacement LEDs just like metal halide and T5 bulbs.

Basically it seems now my only real concerns are reliability and lifespan. I have extreme doubts that these things will do more than half what they are rated for but I guess time will tell, it's just an awfully long time to wait. I would definitely consider a LED fixture if

• The LEDs could be easily replaced with a somewhat universal LED design (open up competition in the future)
• The fixture was visually appealing (something like the giesemann fixtures)
• Made from quality material like aluminum and did not require fans
• Remote drivers making the fixture light enough to be hung easily from two single points
• Controllable by 0-10V interface
• Minimum 3 year warranty

With all that I would expect to pay between $2000-$3000 and would be happy to do so.