cleaner wrasse

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by justinl

alright, since my credibility is being questioned, read it yourselves.

from wetweb
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm

peer-reviewed journal
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3505553

wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish

It was noted on RC and other sources that it is unlikely that these wrasses are getting all the nutrition they need from prepared foods, thus leading to their eventual demise. Two years is not long term.

you guys are basically missing (or worse, ignoring?) my main point entirely. Let's say for argument's sake that these fish were as hardy as damsels and didn't have the abysmal death rate it currently sees in this trade. It should not have been removed from the ocean in the FIRST place. These species serve a vital role in the ocean. That's why you see lines of fish waiting at a cleaner wrasse's cleaning station. That's why you see these fish, completely unafraid of large predators like groupers, swimming around inside of their mouths picking at parasites. That's why said large predators choose to be cleaned over getting an easy meal. If they weren't such an important fish on the reefs, they would get eaten quickly after venturing in to see what shark teeth look like out of curiosity. Each cleaner wrasse station is a high demand function that serves a broad area (evidenced by lines of fish waiting their turn). Take away that fish and you remove this function from said broad area, depriving hundreds of wild fish of their parasite removal. Why? So you can save a handful of fish in a glass box.

And an interesting tidbit: they don't even eat ich. A study done by Alexandra Grutter, Parasite removal rates by the cleaner wrasse Labroides dimidiatus, 1996, examined stomach content and none of the fish stomachs they found contained ich. 99.7% +/- .06% was gnathid isopods, the rest were caligid and other parasitic copepods. None were cryptocaryon (a ciliate protozoan). I could see them taking ich ectoparasites in captivity (considering there's nothing else for them to eat) but would it be enough for them either nutritionally or in sheer volume? imo, no, not unless you have a full load of fish in a 1000g tank.

Another factor to consider: would it have any real impact on ich in the tank? imo no. They'll eat the ectoparasites but ich burrows under fish scales and cannot be eaten then, nor will they be eaten in their planktonic forms or in their cyst stage in the sand. The ectoparasitic stage of ich is shortlived. They will live in the sand damn nearly indefinitely (i think it was Eric Borneman who found this out by observations of a fishless tank) so you'll basically never actually get rid of the damn things.

A better approach is other cleaners like neon gobies and cleaner shrimp, which although I understand they are hit or miss on cleaning, at least they eat other things . If you didn't stock such that you can accommodate them, tough chickens. The other solution is to not let your fish get ich. QT. Dip. Choose livestock not known to be prone to death/infection. Be proactive, not reactive (generally a good rule of thumb in this hobby).

justinl I know you're creditable and I wasn't questioning that. I know research supports your point.

My point however is that my personal experiences differ from what the research says and that people have the right to know both sides of the story in order to make an informed decision for themselves. Also it can't just be coincidence that my experiences are similar to my2rotties experiences (see below quote) and the same goes for others I know as well.

If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm not really close to the fish in the wild, whereas I have a bond with the fish in my tank. There is no way I would deprive my fish of the important cleaning service that the cleaner wrasse provides.

To me it looks like my wrasse picks off the ich cysts from my fish. I know my wrasse eats mysis and nori (and I wouldn't recommend getting one that wasn't already eating mysis or nori etc.) I don't know if he eats the ich. All I know is that he constantly picks at my fish and seemingly keeps them ich free. Before I got the wrasse I was getting close to loosing most of my tangs from the ich virus. Within 3 weeks of getting my wrasse all my tangs and other fish made full recoveries and have never had ich that bad again.

I realize cleaner wrasses are important to the fish in the wild but (perhaps being a bit selfish maybe) I believe my cleaner wrasse is equally important to the fish in my tank. Sorry for caring more for my fish in my tank then the fish in the wild but (while I wouldn't want all the cleaner wrasses in the wild to disappear) I'm not about to let my fish in my tank die from ich when I can buy a cleaner wrasse to clean them and save their lives.

FYI if I could get a neon goby or a different type of fish to clean the ich off my fish I would be all for it. But since the 2 neon gobies I tried died shortly after buying them and the cleaner wrasse I have now has been alive for about a year, I have to say (for me) the cleaner wrasse was a better choice.

This has just been my experience (and few other people I know have had luck with cleaner wrasses as well) but I'm sure there are many people who have had back luck with them too. I also wouldn't buy a cleaner wrasse that wasn't already seemingly healthy and eating mysis or nori. I agree that they wont survive in a tank off ich alone.

Sorry if I may have offended anyone but while research supports one theory my personal experiences support another and I feel that I should share my experience so others can come to their own conclusions.

Besides, look at the belly on my cleaner, does he look hungry to you? I think not I know he wont rid the tank of ich but he keeps it under control and that's good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by my2rotties

I'm going to get beat up for voicing my opinion, but I would never ever be without a cleaner wrasse. I went without one with this new system and when I added one almost four months ago, he became the holy grail of the tank. Fish were lining up for him to clean them off and still do to this day.

My cleaner wrasse went missing for a few hours a couple of weeks ago, and all the fish were frantically looking all over the place for the little. When he reappeared the fish all were swimming circles around him opening their mouths, waiting for cleaning.

IMO I think it is wrong to not have a cleaner wrasse in a big tank with lots of fish. I know they do not cure ich but I never see it on any of my fish anymore. My cleaner wrasse is busy cleaning my fish all day, what he cleans I am not sure of, but I feel he is essential to the health of my other fish. Any ocean photography I usually see has a cleaner wrasse cleaning the fish in the picture.

My clean wrasse eats the particles of the home made food I make for my puffer as well. He is fat for a wrasse and is growing. I can honestly say if he dies, I will replace him. My fish appreciate him and the services he does for them...

[my2rotties]

As long as I stay in this hobby, I feel my fish deserve to have a cleaner wrasse. It is just a natural and appreciated combination, it would be cruel not to give my captive fish something they have in the ocean.

I also buy strictly aqua cultured corals and I never had a problem with hardiness of cleaner wrasses... Instead of bashing me, perhaps talk to the LFS and wholesalers of fish...It is them that brings these fish in for purchase. I recall asking about ich a very long time agom and was told to get a cleaner wrasse. I was never told they were hard to keep and always died... I have never had issues with mine to have to constantly replace them.

My fish deserve a cleaner wrasse for their well being and I find them essential to the health of my tank. Perhaps I am being selfish but this is a selfish hobby to begin with.

[TJSlayer]

I would have to say all points are valid, and I wasn't questioning anyone per say all I was saying was that I have kep one succesfully all be it from an already successful tank, but it is doing quiet fine.

And I would also never outright seeks something that wasn't already in the Petstore so to speak....

There are many things in this hobby that are consider questionable and livestock is probably the biggest, but as long as we provide the best possible atmosphere and environment for our critters I think that is all that can be asked, but to each his own...

TJ

[justinl]

Laurie, yup, absolutely, I agree that anecdotal information is important. I'm just voicing my opinion as well; I did not mean to discredit anyone's experience. Maybe I'm biased towards wild fish just because that's what I study and plan to be my career (marine fish biology), but looking at things in a broader perspective, I can't say I agree with the importance of fish in a tank.

For argument's sake, let us imagine what would happen if cleaner wrasses went extinct or declined to the point where their function as a cleaner fish was rendered nonfunctional. Parasitic copepod and isopod events could go up exponentially (or maybe not at all... i hope we don't have to find out) leading to shortened lifespan of animals. Greater occurences of the same parasites as these adult fish are brought into our hobby. Increased natural mortality of adult fish, perhaps pushing the less disease resistant species from their precarious hold onto the endangered list and out into the abyss of the extinct list. Are you familiar with the current farmed salmon parasitic copepod issue? Perhaps there will be so damn many parasites, that they will occur in fatal density on juvenile fish; juveniles are less resistant to parasites so mortality will increase before they even mature and contribute to future stock. Such mortality might decrease fish populations inciting an allee effect, in which a species' population is brought to such low levels that they are doomed to spiral into extinction due to low genetic diversity, such low densities that they can't find each other to mate etc. And finally, as more and more fish go extinct or become endangered because we decided cleaner wrasses could be exterminated from the reefs, said fish will become unavailable to the trade. Politicians and scientists will rage on the hobby until it is choked by restrictions until it finally dies out. As you can (hopefully) see, we CANNOT pretend that we are a separate body from wild stock of fish. like it or not, you are very close to wild fish.

let us set emotions and attachments to our fish aside. After all they're really just artifacts of human nature and have no real meaning in the long run... well, except negative effects. I mean, if we had never evolved beyond the "ape" status, the world would be much better off. But I digress. Sans emotions, let us be mechanically logical and look at numbers. Okay, how many fish do you have in your tank besides you cleaner wrasse? Ten? Alright so let us assume the wrasse treats them all. Now conversely, how many fish could the same wrasse have cleaned in the wild? Hundreds, maybe thousands in its lifetime! That's a lot of happy fish. Why should your fish (who will not contribute one iota to future stock and in the long run means nothing at all), be any more important than wild fish? Like it or not, they're less important. I don't mean to be abrasive, but I can't say I care what your heart says; use your brain.

Another thing I have to bring up is image. Image is everything these days. When aquarists say things like "my fish are more important than wild stocks", first I get depressed at the lack of perspective. Then I get angry and frightened because it is exactly this that will shut down our hobby, ruin wild stocks of fish and just basically make us all have a really bad day. All your non-reefer friends will see this attitude and they'll assume we all feel that way; the danger here is that the non-reefers are in power. The non-reefers outnumber us and they will be the ones to pass judgement on us according to what image we present them. Why do you think there is such a big push for aquaculture in our hobby? Why do you think we frown so much on noobs who make impulse buys and/or don't do their homework properly? Because a lot of us realize that this hobby we love so has such significant effects in the wild... and if we continue doing the same as we are now, we will be shut down one way or another. Whether by extinctions of animals or death by legislation is irrelevant; it's just a matter of time unless we change.

hmm... this thread is rapidly veering off-topic. oh wellz.

[justinl]

these walls of text are killing me to write. I hope you're actually reading the damned things.

my2rotties, chill. I don't know where you got the impression that I'm bashing you from... I mean my statements to be general, not targeted. That said, you're still ignoring the fact that wild stocks (which FAR outnumber the fish in your tank) are now deprived of the same service. How is it not cruel to hamstring an important ecosystem function, further restricting the hobby's only resource of ALL fish? How is that not cruel to any reefer in our hobby? How is that not cruel to future hobbyists who would like to join? Until someone comes up with a decent rebuttal to that, I'm not even going to think about changing my mind regarding this species.

I know this will sound abrasive, but to think that fish in tanks are more important than wild fish is incredibly arrogant. I can't think of a more suitable word than that. naive is a close second though.

as long as people buy a fish, they supply the demand for it. As long as there's a demand, collectors will collect it; so in the end, it's the reefers who are responsible for what is collected. This topic has been beat to death already. This hobby is selfish by nature, I do agree, but it does not have to be destructive as well. Buying second hand/aquacultured is great, I fully encourage that practice.

as for their being essential to a tank with fish, look at how many successful tanks don't have cleaner wrasses in them and say that again.

edit: when I say "you" in my posts, I don't mean you. I mean yooooouuuuuu in the general sense. I had hoped that would have been assumed. Like I said, I'm not here to bash anyone; I'm not Jesus (believe it or not ), I have no right to pass judgement

[fishoholic]

justinl you make very valid points and obviously you are passionate about the fish in the wild. I understand you're concern about people demanding cleaner wrasses and eventually them starting to become extinct. Just so you know I hope that doesn't happen and if (to you it's probably more of a when but to me it's an if) cleaner wrasse's are put on a list saying they are becoming endangered I will not buy one. I hope that they are able to reproduce effectively in the wild so that day will never happen, and even better, I hope that some day they will be captively bred.

When aquarists say things like "my fish are more important than wild stocks", I'm not saying my fish are more important (after all they came from the wild) I'm just saying that to me they are as important, after all I didn't know them when they were in the wild, but only came to know them after I brought them home. This caused me to have an emotional connection to my fish. If one of the fish in my tank dies I will be sad. If a fish in the wild dies I probably wont even be aware of when it happened even though I know fish die in the wild every day.

For example: if a grandparent dies in another part of the world, sure it's sad, but I didn't know the person and I probably wont grieve over them. However if my grandparent was to die I would grieve for a long time. To me life is all about personal and emotional connections. I have that with my fish I don't have it with the fish in the wild, maybe you do, I'm not sure but it seems like it. Not saying my opinion is right or wrong but for me it's just keeping it real and being honest.

I'm sure I'm probably frustrating you justinl (and probably some others as well) and I apologize for that, it wasn't my intent, but I like playing Devils advocate every now and then and I do enjoy a good debate. So again justinl,

Anyway the original point of this thread was:

are these fish as hard to keep as people say....im thinking of getting one since my peppermint or coral banded shrimp keep killing my cleaner shrimp i put in so thinking of another route of fish cleaning...thanks

My short answer would have to be: No they are not as hard to keep as some people say they are. Just find one that is already eating mysis and or nori (most reputable fish stores will feed the fish upon request) and as long as you find one that's eating you shouldn't have problems keeping this fish.

This was my original thread asking about other options because I was having ich issues and I knew people said cleaner wrasses are bad to buy and don't do well etc.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...cleaner+wrasse

I bought my cleaner wrasse July 21 2008 (the cleaner wrasse that I bought had been at the lfs for over a month and was eating mysis and was half the price of the neon gobies the store was selling) naesco told me (and I quote) "As you know, the chances that the clearner wrasse you bought lasting more than a few weeks are remote." Well needless to say he is still alive and well and fatter then ever.

This is a pic. of my cleaner from when I first bought him. He is definitely fatter now, but he still was a good size then.

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