These LED's just aren't cutting it. Or - are they?

[jason604]

Originally Posted by mike31154

I hardly think every Apple computer component is made in the good ol' USA. Perhaps the computers are 'assembled' in the US (more likely Mexico), but I hardly think the insides are all manufactured in North America. Don't know where you've been lately, but I reckon even Cree LEDs are made in Asia or somewhere else where labour costs are minimal. There's no way to compete these days even for the big players if they aren't taking advantage of low cost labour in developing countries.

I'm typing this on my Compaq notebook which I've had for almost 10 years now & it's still working fine. Did have issues, the power connector went wonky, but I had that replaced while the notebook was still under warranty. Other than that I've upgraded the RAM to keep it running reasonably quick with Windows XP.

Same story with LEDs really. You'll likely find that bridgelux, Phillips and other companies are having them made offshore. As far as fixture cost, seems to me I've seen some threads on high end Radion fixtures having problems with their cooling fans failing. That should definitely not happen with a fixture of that price point. Where's the quality control there and where do you suppose those fans come from? The fans on my DIY LED fixture are starting to give out as well, but I can replace them easily & I know they're cheap, so I'm prepared for that with a few spares. I don't have to send the fixture back to EcoTech or wait for them to ship me a new fan. And when my LEDs start fading away, I can easily replace them with the same cheapies or take advantage of the latest multichip technology/colour at an even lower price than what I paid for the originals. I don't need to replace the whole fixture. Admittedly, some of the pricier fixtures these days are modular, so you can change out the LEDs there as well.

Anyhow, to each his own. If money is no object, go for the most expensive fixture out there with all the bells & whistles. If you're on a budget, with a bit of research, you can easily get or build something that will be just as good at keeping your livestock healthy without breaking the bank.

+1 =). Screw apple! PC all the way!!!! Price doesn't always means something is far more superior. Majority of the time what ur paying for is the brand. For example I've had bought HP laptop and computer which both lasted no more than 1 yr then decided to get a custom built one for a much much cheaper price and 10x better performance with no problems. As for LED fixture maybe mine won't last 10years or w.e how long the expensive ones last but I can buy a new one or replace parts very cheaply when it does break.

[Ron99]

Apple computers are assembled in China using components that come from electronics companies all over the world (chips from the US or Japan or Korea, LCD screens from Japan and Korea, hard drives from Japan etc. Probably even numerous components from China. Apple bought CNC mills to put at it’s Chinese manufacturing partner’s facility (Foxconn) to machine all the aluminum enclosures etc. in-house in China. However, they are assembled to Apple’s specs and requirements. In fact, most of the consumer electronics we use are assembled in China but design and components are specified by Apple, Sony, Microsoft etc. It’s not about where something is built but about the design, the quality of the components and the quality control that is required by and overseen by the particular “brand”. And not all brands are created equal. Sony used ot have a great reputation for quality and reliability (not sure they still do). Apple does too. I have used tons of Apple hardware starting in the early 90s and I have very rarely seen a hardware failure (or major software failure for that matter). Part of what you pay for with Apple is also the OS and the R&D that has gone into it.

Anyhow, I'm not here to make this into a PC vs. Apple debate :-) The cheap LED fixtures are slapped together by the companies in China without any R&D, design or long term testing.

As for the LED chips, Cree does produce their own chips at Fabs in the US. I believe Phillips does as well. Bridgelux designs the chips but doesn’t manufacture themselves. They contract that out and I believe Toshiba is one of their big contractors for the actual chips. Seoul Semiconductor is Korean and I imagine manufacture their chips at facilities there.

Now anyone can take a high quality LED emitter from Cree for example and run it on a cheap driver with a crappy heatsink etc. They will still have problems down the road. It’s the overall package that’s important. I’ve spoken to several people who have run cheap fixtures and they were happy with them in the short term but not over the long term because of problems. Sure people have problems with expensive fixtures too but at least you will get warranty support etc for those. It’s harder to get support for the cheapo ones.

I can't see how a $200 120W LED light can have any quality components in it. It will either be generic LEDs or the cheapest bins from Cree or Bridgelux etc. And they will have to skimp on power supplies and drivers etc to come in at that price. There's no way. I haven't checked prices today but you can't DIY a decent 120W LED fixture for $200. And even at lower costs with volume purchases of components a $200 fixture is not going to have any quality whatsoever. Does that mean I suggest you run out and buy a $2000 fixture? No, not at all. But don't try to make it sound like a $200 fixture is going to perform anywhere near as well as a $2000 fixture. It's just not possible.

If you want to get a quality LED light on a budget then DIY is the way to go. It isn’t particularly difficult for anyone even remotely handy. I still have the four foot fixture I built several years ago using Cree emitters and Meanwell drivers and overkill heatsinks etc. I’m getting ready to re-enter the world of large reef tanks and will be using it on a new 120 gallon build as I can’t afford to spend $1800 on a Vertex fixture or a couple Radion Pros etc. But if I were buying an off the shelf fixture I would avoid the cheap generic/rebranded Chinese fixtures for many of the reasons I mentioned. In fact, I haven’t even seen a mid range fixture that I particularly like (Maxspect, Kessil etc). If I couldn’t afford a high end fixture I would just go DIY again. You can then build something for your own personal application with the mix of colours and configuration you want.

[mike31154]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Anyhow, I'm not here to make this into a PC vs. Apple debate :-) The cheap LED fixtures are slapped together by the companies in China without any R&D, design or long term testing.

Hey man, I'm with you there, not sure how a LED light discussion ends up being a computer hardware/software war.

It's just that when I see the much over used 'you get what you pay for' argument, I can't help but write a novel. There are so many variables with the products we're offered these days it's difficult to see the forest for the trees. Certainly there's a lot to be said for brand names & R&D, but there really are no guarantees in the end. We're all human & Asians, Europeans, North/South Americans, what have you can have a bad day at the assembly line. Of course the conditions with which these workers have to deal with will have an impact on how many bad days they have. I'm guessing here, but the company called 'solaris'? came out with some first generation LED fixtures that cost in the range of $2K and up? The company went bankrupt primarily due to a patent law suit IIRC, but the fixtures also had issues with their power supplies. Ask the folks that put out thousands for these quality fixtures how they feel about that.

I run VorTechs on my tank & am quite happy with them despite the price, but the first one I purchased was a Gen 1 MP40 on which the wet side magnets would rust after about 6 months of use. Of course the current models use improved magnets that don't rust, but I still paid top dollar for something that was made in the USA & probably rushed to market before all the R&D was done properly. I don't own a Radion LED, mainly due to the price, but it seems they rushed the first batch of those out as well, due to mounting pressure from the competition. Witness the newer models with improvements & tweaks. The originals were still pretty costly. Anyhow, sorry for the long winded novel again, but my experience is you don't always 'get what your pay for'.

[Ron99]

I hear you. Yes, any product can have defects or problems. A Porsche can have problems just like a Kia. But don't expect the Kia to have the same performance, build quality or materials as the Porsche. So while it's not a 100% accurate rule, in general I do find you get what you pay for. A better, more expensive brand will generally be better in most cases than a cheap generic product. I'm sure we can can make a list of examples that aren't the case but I think in general it is true.

My point was just that a $200 generic LED fixture is highly unlikely to have the performance, build quality and durability of a high end fixture.

[Madreefer]

Dammit!!!!!!
So are you guys saying I can't get by with my Commador 64?

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

Dammit!!!!!!
So are you guys saying I can't get by with my Commador 64?

Depends what you want to do with it. Seeing as people make controllers out of Arduino boards I'm sure you could program it to be a kick butt aquarium controller system that can still play Elite or Boulderdash