TM balling webinar synopsis

[Ron99]

Well, I don't have time to run a spreadsheet and financial analysis right now but from what I've seen of many (not all, but many) additives and supplements, the costs add up to a great deal over time and the savings can likewise add up over time.

As for the whole issue of balanced dosing, I'm not disputing the principal but I will also suggest that I don't think it's even possible to completely "balance" your dosing as each system will be different depending on size, livestock, livestock types and various rates of consumption of a wide range of different elements by different types of corals or algae or clams etc.

Just my thoughts on it all. Plenty of people over the years seem to get by perfectly well and have stunning reef tanks with nothing more than regular water changes and perhaps regular two or three part dosing or running a calcium reactor etc.

[Aqua-Digital]

All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.

I guess this is where I have a bit of a problem when you make the implication that this is the "right" way and other ways are not "right". As I've been trying to say, there are many ways to dose and maintain tank chemistry and claiming that one is right and the others aren't is a bit bold IMO. Plenty of people have stunning tanks using other methods or products as well. The TM ones may be good but so can others too. That's my point.

And I think that tanks may vary in their requirements for different trace elements depending on their livestock. For example, someone growing some ornamental macro algae or a fuge full of macro algae may need to dose more iron or iodine than someone not. And even that is questionable. Here's a great write up by Randy Holmes-Farley on trace element dosing:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/

[Aqua-Digital]

Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.

I think I made it clear that I understand the proposition of the "balanced" dosing that Dr. Balling proposes. That's not the question. I simply wonder if there's really a need to do so beyond simple water changes and possibly dosing for CA, Alk and Mg if need be. Ca and Alk are the two big ones that can potentially cause problems. The rest not so much unless something is way out of whack.

Has Dr. Balling done any analysis in reef tanks to measure the consumption rates of all the other minor and trace elements to determine what dosing is required of them? Can he/you provide that data or a link to it?

[Aqua-Digital]

The need as said in many thread previous is because a water change ONLY changes the % of imbalance in the water change, so for example as i said before if you do a 10% water change you are only addressing 10% of the imbalance same as you only remove 10% bad nutrients.

the only way to achieve the same with a water change is by 100% change

[Ron99]

You are assuming that the trace and minor elements are being consumed at a rate higher than 10% (very simplified number for what is a complicated system). That's why I would like to see some data on the consumption rates of all these various elements that apparently need to be dosed to replenish them beyond what a water change might accomplish. Randy Holmes-Farley seems to indicate that many are used up very slowly and that our salt mixes contain more than natural sea water in any case. I just don't have time to check all his references right now. I imagine Dr. Balling would have some data on the consumption rates of these various elements in a "typical" reef system and some data on how regular water changes don't replenish them sufficiently thus supporting the use of his supplements. Perhaps you could ask for that or some references?

The chemistry beyond the use of the major elements such as Ca and carbonate is complex and I suspect varies greatly from system to system depending on types of corals and inverts etc. I'm not convinced that this one size fits all solution is best for everyone, let alone even necessary given the low rate of use of uptake of the trace elements and the ability to replenish via water changes.

[Aqua-Digital]

Give tropic marin a call ask to speak to Lou he is expecting your call, he will explain everything to you person to person directly.

You should have joined the seminar.

[reeferfulton]

I am currently using this , on week 2 now.
will number the questions i would like addressed
thanks

(1.)I am told that part C is dosed at the same rate as part B. correct ?

if so

The box shows that part C contains 3350mg/l MG , 980mg/l K it does not list any other trace elements.
(2.)This is supposed to be everything from a TM salt bucket less the salt , ca , alk
correct ?

Either way . i am currently dosing 84ml a day of part B . Now if to be balanced i need to be adding 84ml of C then i think i have an issue .
My mag consumption has been very low for the last 5 months . so I have chosen to dose on 20 ml a day of part C. And after 2 weeks my Mg is still 1500.

(3.)SO , I am not Balanced ??
I do 10 percent changes each week . ANd the bucket of IO i am currently using seems to have Mg in the upper 1450's ( tested with red sea, and salifert)

(4.)So how can I add an equal dose of part C to be BALANCED if my Mg is already high?

(5.)Then there is the Question of the 980 mg/l of K in part C . This is pottasium right ?
(6.)I have never tested for potassium . Should i be concerned of an overdose?

thanks for the help
maybe these levels will be driven high too . ?

[Aqua-Digital]

1) Yes providing you start with a balanced system i.e all parameters in line with their guidelines which is written on the box. You may find you need to slightly vary away from this depending on your own tanks needs. Its a guideline

2) yes correct all 3 parts A B and C make up NSW minus the sodium Chloride.

3) refer to point #1 you need to balance your system first

4) This also comes down to point #1

You balance your system first by manual dosing once balanced you can work out your daily consumption.