Ok this is totaly silly, a 1X turn over for tank volume will have absolutly nothing to do with skimmer preformance. you telling me if I have a 180 gal tank with a 1X turn over a berlin will do a 100% skim on it.. :rolleyes:

you not going to get a 100% skim unless you match the flow of the sump to the flow of the skimmer, that means your overflows go into your skimmer then to the sump and there is no way you could aford a skimme that will handle that flow.

so in the real world, shoot for between 3 to 10X turnover depending on what the sump can handle. this is the most important thing as depending on how you designed the sump will dictate the max amount of flow that is reasonable throug it. personaly I go for 10 to 20X through the sump as I have it set up like a setteling pond. with 160X turn over in a main tank not much settles out of the water colume so I take it to the sump where it goes high speed through a couple baffeles then just opens up to a very large area where it slows down and junk falls out. so that was about 1800 gal per hour through the sump, my skimmer was a becket fed by a mak4 so irt was probably doing about 800gph.

this 100% vs 10% thing is a waist of a good argument also as no one is going to do a 100% waterchang every month and it just doesn't matter after the say 10 hours of doing 80% and 10% you are gettting the same results from either method and no skimmer has a 100% efficiency, maybe 20% if you are lucky.

so don't worry about skimmer preformance vs sump flow. set it up so the flow is good and not to turbulant in the sump, get the best skimmer you can afford and enjoy the tank.

Steve

no teath yes will take the surface water a bit better, not a lot, but the big advantage is it is quiet and less air in the overflow so you get better flow.

Steve

I just lost all my typing so I will try get it down again :twised:

there was a study, that showed that the best turnover was between 5 to 10% with almost as good in the 3-5% range and the 10-15% range.

now this is hard to quantify and a useless study because it is only aplicable to a system with the same size sump, display tank, skimmer and even simular tank stocking as if you change any one of thoes aspects you alter the outcome. so unless we at least know sump size/shape, display tank volume, and the skimmer he is using no one can even pretend to say what sump flow rate would be good.

now as for Mr OM's 100%vs10% thing, pure bunk.. first all no one does constant weekly 100% water changes so it is a fary tale.. Second no skimmer has a 100% efficency so it aint going to happen, your skimmer probably skimms at a 5 to 15% efficiency at best.

but it was a entertaining thread.. made me chuckel a few times.:mrgreen:

Steve

For what it's worth, the proper flow rate according to Pedro Ramon Escobal, the man who literally wrote the book on filtration devices http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquatic-Syst.../dp/1888381051
... and wrote the book on rocket science. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Astr...tt_at_ep_dpt_1
... then another book after the rocket scientists finally understood the first one. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Orbi...tt_at_ep_dpt_2

According to Escobal, founder of Aquatronics (premier aquarium medication manufacturer) and Filtronics (innovative filtration device manufacturer), protein skimmers should have a 1.333333 throughput per hour for maximum efficiency. He uses the same flow through rate for sumps for obvious reasons. If you go on to read his recommendations for UV sterilizer throughput the math works out to 2 x per day, yes DAY turnover ratio.

Media filters such as fluidized beds operate with small powerheads so we're talking 300 GPH, at best. Refugia require slow flow for pod development and longer dwell time with algae.

As far as filter socks go, they work best with a slow flow so the detritus you collect isn't pulverized by water flow and converted from POC (particulate organic carbon) to a liquid form - DOC (dissolved organic carbon). keeping the detritus in the display tank suspended with dedicated water flow such as a closed loop or powerheads is the key to collecting more detritus. A flow rate of 1.33333 x the volume of the display tank is enough to collect the maximum amount of detritus without diminished returns.

Ozone is dosed into the protein skimmer so we can go with the magic skimmer number of 1.33333. Are you starting to see a pattern yet? All of these devices are operating concurrently, that is to say the water entering one, then goes into the next device until the water exits the sump.

There is absolutely no reason to deliver more water to filtration devices than they require to operate. It is a waste or resources and actually decreases performance. It skims a thicker water sample from the surface of the display which yields less surfactant proteins, pre-skimmed for the protein skimmer. The water travelling over the overflow box does not move faster (meaning more rapid surface skimming) when you increase the return pump output volume. The water simply climbs higher over the box drawing the excess water from below the surface "skin". This taxes your overflow drains causing more microbubbles, noise, turbulence, saltcreep and heat & energy from the pump.

The most efficient filtration system is a first in first out (FIFO) system. The water skimmed by the overflow box should be fed directly into the protein skimmer in the sump. That water should then be drained out of the skimmer and move on to the other devices you have selected in series/succession (one at a time). If your protein skimmer does not allow for direct feeding, you should locate the protein skimmer in a partitioned area at the beginning of the sump where water drains from the display tank at the same rate as the skimmer pump (likely 1.33333 x display tank volume per hr). The processed water that exits the protein skimmer should be directed over the partition so it enters the next stage of filtration, usually the refugium with media filters being last.

If you implement this simple system, you will process 100% of the water entering the sump, and do so only once. If you do not use a FIFO system your protein skimmer is filtering the same water over and over randomly, missing some display tank water entirely.

Now let's look at some scenarios if the return pump and skimmer pump are not matched exactly. If the skimmer pump is stronger than the return pump, more water will go through the skimmer than the amount entering the sump. This will result in the excess portion of water travelling "backwards" over the partition from the second stage back to the first to equal out the pumps. The disadvantage of this is that excess water will get processed a second time, but no water will go unskimmed. If the return pump is stronger than the skimmer pump, the excess flow will bypass the skimmer, but you will not process any water two times before it is returned to the display tank. If this is the case, it is a lot easier to restrict the return pump than mess with the skimmer pump. Some manufacturers allow you to adjust air flow which in turn lowers or increases water flow.

If we continue with this idea, the media filters could be housed in the second partition with a dedicated pump (powerhead). The effluent (exit/processed) water from the media filters would be directed over a second partition so it is processed only once. If you use a return pump bypass, the water will be reprocessed randomly.

In summary, the sump is not a filter, it's merely a vessel to old them. If we could live with the clutter hanging on the back of the display tank, we would not have to go though the expense, noise, flood hazard and bubbles that come with moving water to and from a sump. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that less is more in the case of display tank flow through/throughput rates, but if you ask a rocket scientist he will agree that the flow rate is governed by the protein skimmer pump output which happens to be in the neighbourhood of 1.33333 x the volume of the tank.

Actually protein skimmers have an efficacy rate of 80% for removing proteins and 20% for removing TOC (total organic carbon - DOC & POC).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

I have a DIY Recirc skimmer on ly 150, return pump is a Little Giant 4 Mqdx, like 1100GPH or something at 0 head. I was running about 6-700GPH through sump. I throttled the return back, and added a N/P pellet reactor T'd off the return pump. Now, I am about 300GPH i would say, and my skimmer works WAY better. I'm pulling more tea than before, and consistent. No adjustments were made to skimmer, or water height. Just flow.....
Make your own conclusions from that

Just so it is on record could you point me to where I said that.

The question on the table isn't the limitations of protein skimmers, it's simply how much water do we need to feed them. I really don't see how anyone can argue that their protein skimmer that processes 500 GPH needs 1000 GPH fed to it. After you move beyond that no brainer you figure out a way of making sure that all of the water you run through the sump goes through the protein skimmer and does so only once. That's maximum efficiency.

Exactly. But, one does have to consider tank flow if it's enough to maintian detritus in suspension so the low sump flow can take it. Most have that taken care of no problem. Some, however use sump flow as a contributor to overal tank turnover. If you don't get the crud from the tank to the sump, it doesnt matter what flow the sump/skimmer has.

Hey Dan, every single post I have ever made regarding this has been precluded by the statement that "if the flow in the display is enough" what part do they miss.

ya, I realized that after, figured I repost it though LOL.


I think this topic is like the MH/T5 debate. There is soo many possible variations and is one really better than the other? It will all depend on tank, inhabitant's other equip. etc etc.

One thing I like about this hobby is nothing is in STONE. You don't have to do it this way, or you will crash/loose everything. It's a completely custom hobby. The only thing we all have in common is we use salt water. The rest is completely up to the owner.

Fiddle with it, change things. NEVER be afraid to try something new. Even if it didn't work for so and so, doesn't mean it is wrong and wont work for you.

Absolutely. We are going under the assumption that the display tank water is moved by powerheads or a closed loop pump, as it should be for efficiency. using sump turnover ratios to increase flow in the tank makes no more sense than pumping water through your light fixture for more flow.

Some people try to do a one-pump-fits-all system, but you will find this is a false economy. save money on your return pump and use the savings to build a closed loop or add powerheads.

Mr. Wilson,
First of all thank you for that properly constructed post if every single person on this forum was like you I don't think I would ever stop reading :lol:. I will break my "No more posting" post as there are finally some factual intelligent comments on here.

The only one major difference between what you have described and what takes places in the average reefer's sump is that almost in all cases the skimmer is never fed by the return. In the future I might design my sump like this as its an interesting concept and I'm sure it would save energy/ increase efficiency. Just out of curiosity do you have any photos of your sump as I would love to take a look?

Now that being said, as most sumps are not like this and include a sump volume with multiple apparatus drawing water out of that volume (and not being plumbed in line). We can determine that some of this water is leaked and gets pumped back into the main tank has to be dirty (as there is no way you could 100% clean this before it makes its way back).

So if dirty water is being plumbed into the tank anyways why not increase the flow so there is constantly a new supply of DOC and surfactants for the skimmer to skim off? Also with the advent of Biopellet reactors, Zeovit and other nitrate/ite/NH3 sinks would it not be more beneficial to have a higher turn over to supply fresh dissolved (As compared to surface) organics to these reactors?

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The protein skimmer is not fed by the sump return pump directly. The water first passes through the display tank for an unknown amount of time. The water eventually overflows into the overflow box where it is then available to the skimmer. I wish there was a FIFO (first in first out) system that would assure display tank water is processed at maximum efficiency. For our purposes, we will call the display tank water "dirty" and the sump water "clean".

If you install a single glass partition wall to segregate your protein skimmer in a an area we will call the "skimmer zone", and you plumb the protein skimmer effluent so it puts the "clean" water into the second zone, then you will process 100% of the water entering the sump, providing your sump return pump is matched to the output of your skimmer pump.

Let's look at an example. If you have a tank between 75-300 gallons you will likely be using a modified laguna Max-Flo 1500 pump that produces 800-1000 LPH air, and 450-500 GPH of water throughput. This is the pump you will find on Royal Exclusive Bubbleking and ATB models. Protein skimmers using Sicce PSK-2500 pumps have approximately 660 GPH output, but that is dialed back as more air is introduced.

Now that we know 500 GPH is the maximum amount of water we can treat, we match our sump return pump accordingly. Simply go to a handy head loss calculator and punch in your head distance, pipe size, and plumbing parts. http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator I picked Poseidon/Velocity PS2 for cost effectiveness, low heat transfer, external pump, and absolutely dead quiet operating sound. My calculation came up with 592 GPH, and 664 GPH with the PS3. The price and power consumption is the same for both models so I would go with the larger PS3 and run a bypass of 150 GPH through a UV sterilizer. If you are an energy miser go with an external powerhead of some sort. You should be able to move that much water using half as much electricity. Personally I feel it's cheaper to pay for the extra electricity with the comfort of knowing your PS2 or 3 will run for many years without service. Or take that $5.00 energy savings per month and keep it in a jar. You will be able to buy a new powerhead in three years when that one dies. They will be running on solar or wind by then anyway :)

There is no reason why media reactors or bags of media in a dam & weir can't be fed strictly "dirty" water. The water exits the skimmer and flows over the media bag once as it travels through the sump, or your media reactor effluent is directed to the third zone so it is only treated once.

I didn't address this point in my last post. Overflow boxes of any design skim only the thin crust of hydrophobic surfactants off of the surface. The brunt of the water is not from the surface and will contain all kinds of wonderful "dirt" for the various gizmos and gadgets.

One way you get close to a FIFO style sump is with a recirc style skimmer. If the drain of the tank is fed Directly into skimmer, then the skimmer will skim 100% of the sump flow.(to the skimmers efficiency's of course) The Sump return pump would then only need to be sized for the skimmers need. But, it seem's most skimmers now are being made single pass.

I was allways told that it is only the very thin layer of the surface we want? The solid particulate waste acctually gets absorbed/eaten by corals, inverts etc.

Or NP Biopellet bacteria for that matter :lol:. Thank you both of you, learned some new info today because of you!

I'd like to know what the solution is to a system that cannot have intakes in any other location but the overflow.

Not understanding what you mean? The tank drains Are located in the overflow.

Restated: What would be the solution to water flow needs if you cannot have open intakes in the aquarium? Let's assume the overflow can't be breached in order to reach those intakes.

One more time, what exactly do you mean?

I'll use an example. Let's say you have a tank full of sea anemones. We'll make them ritteri anemones because they like lots of water flow. In this tank you don't want a PH, closed loop, or anything with an intake. The OF is fine because it is easy to safeguard an overflow without losing efficiency. How do you get the flow up to, say, 10x flow without using PH or CL?

Use a C/L with multiple inlets to reduce the velocity.the overflow box is still an intake. protect the C/L or powerheads the same way..

I'd assume you'd cover the intakes with sponges.

That goes back to what I was saying about Every tank being different. If you do not want to use Powerheads, consider a closed loop. An intake is real easy to guard. Best thing is T the intake off a few times, then there is little suction at all the intake inlets, not just one. If you flow to much through a sump, regardless of skimmer, your going to introduce microbubbles. part of a sump's design is to be slow enough, add time/passages to let the microbbbles escape.

No, don;t use sponges, Nitrate factories. Use Egg crate. If you have 1 1/2" CL intake, but you split it to T's. you now have 4 intakes, each one had a real low suction. an amemone won't get sucked in if you cover the opening with egg crate.

But were getting off the OP's topic here I think.

Half the problem now seems to be everyone going big display tanks and small sumps. Back when sumps were 1st introduced they were always as big or bigger than the display. Now I am seeing 75 gallons with 20 gallon sumps, which is much too small.

Ya, my 150g with a 300g sump would be strange LOL

Mike: Use a perforated nylon intake strainer on a closed loop. I used to use a 1/2 HP (3600 GPH) pump on a canister filter for 25 gallon tanks of small neons and they could comfortably swim right up to the intake or return when I used a perforated nylon strainer. An anemone could live on one while it draws in 3600 GPH. http://www.industrialnetting.com/filtration_tubes.html

Bandit: Single pass skimmers will work for a FIFO system because most of them use Sicce or Laguna pumps that only move 500 GPH.

Why?

Providing the diameter of the intakes is large enough then the velocity would be very little, what size tank are you wanting to get 10x turnover in? if all you want to keep is Nems then build another box out of egg crate and shove the PH or C/L intake in there.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the challenge of fitting as much equipment as possible in a small footprint. If you have the space, always go for as much system volume as you can fit. You can pick up 500 gallon water tanks for a lot less money than the equipment it would take to give you the same water quality. Even daisy chaining a bunch of 50 gallon plastic drums and keeping them in a cool place works well as the flow rate doesn't need to be very fast... oh here we go again :)

That's something to consider for next time. I don't trust CLs and prefer propeller pumps with the included mesh right now. But it's not like the flow through my sump is that great anyway, maybe 2-3x skimmer capacity.

You didn't trust Bill Burnetts overflow system until you tried it and now realize it is the best thing since sliced bread, oh yea of little faith.

It might not seem like it but my anemone 6-8" diameter was pulled into my sump through eggcrate; actually it migrated through the eggcrate on the OF and got pulled into the sump. I have a FIFO system in my sump as well as a filter sock so there wasn't much of a problem. The anemone was ripped up a bit but made it. Sponge and filter floss are the only anemone-proofs I've experienced.

Haha! But I followed it with blind faith anyway.

So how do you explain this comment? remember I have downloaded the whole internet and know who everone is and what they said :)

Sometimes it's easier when I don't understand what someone is saying because I can usually assume it is something logical. Other times I give them too much credit :)

Mr Wilson. If you were to use a single pass skimmer for a FIFO, how would you guarantee that the sump return pump equaled EXACTLY what the skimmer inlet pump was pushing? To be true FIFO, all the water from the tank drain needs to pass through the skimmer, just once. Then, the return pump pumps the skimmed water back to the tank. it would be next to impossible to match them exactly. Thats why a recirc would work better. A recirc doesnt care what goes into it for flow to make the bubbles etc. The slower the inlet flow, the longer the contact time the water has, because bubble production remains constant.

If you put a sponge below the rim of the OF you won't be disrupting the flow into it. That should keep anemones out and allow surface film to go in.
People tend to pick at minor details - I'm not referring to you or anyone else here - so I tend to add all the "exceptions" to my posts to avoid people dwelling on them. See? I just did it again and didn't realise it. I was just imagining someone reading that original post and writing, "The OF has intakes as well, you know." I wanted to avoid that.

Also, I didn't have sponge or floss on the egg crate when the anemone went over.