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View Full Version : Shallow Sandbed or No Sandbed


Beverly
06-17-2004, 04:53 PM
In a few weeks, we will be getting three new tanks to replace current tanks. None of the new tanks will have sumps or refugs, the same as the current tanks are.

A 37g (24" x 18" x 24" h) will replace our 42g hex. A 67g (36" x 18" x 24" h) will replace our 28g. The 67g will be placed where the 28g currently is, and the 37g will be placed where the 28g is. Have cured rock in a lit, heated, aerated rubbermaid tub waiting to be added to the 67g.

A 120g (48" x 24" 24" h) will replace our 72g and will reside where the 72g is.

I have moved tanks before, most of them with DSBs, so I don't see a problem doing all the switching around. Have plenty of tubs, pails, extra heaters and PHs for livestock, rock and sandbeds. Will do the two small tanks at the same time, then do the 120g another day when my back stops hurting :razz:

The problem I'm having is regarding the aragonite sandbeds. Currently, all tanks have 3"+ sandbeds and I'm thinking of going with only 1" sandbeds for all three tanks. The obvious thing to do, imo, is to remove and use the top portions of the current sandbeds in the new tanks. What do I do with the bottom portion of the sandbeds? Anybody want this stuff?

Also, the thought of doing no sandbeds has caught my attention from a thread at RC: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210605&perpage=25&highlight=no%20and%20substrate&pagenumber=1

Anybody here doing sandless tanks? Anybody doing shallow beds? Would like to hear the pros and cons of your experiences with both. Thanks :smile:

Richer
06-17-2004, 05:05 PM
Nothing too constructive to add here... but if you need help moving your tanks, or want to unload your extra sand on someone else, I'll do it :mrgreen:

-Richer

Willito
06-17-2004, 06:21 PM
I have a shallow sandbed approx. 1.5" and it serves my setup just fine, mind you I have 120g with about 170lb fiji, 10g refug, and 30g sump.
I think as long as you have enough rocks to maintain the constant break down of waste you're okay with a shallow bed. However, I wouldn't go without a sandbed. For one, it just doesn't look natural for a reef to have a bare bottom. Secondly, the aragonite sand plays a major role of naturally buffering alk, ph, Ca, etc. to keep things at a desirable balance. Without the sand, you will have more work to maintain this equilibrium.

-Will

monza
06-17-2004, 07:20 PM
In my display tank I have a bare bottom and I like it. Nothing really unnatural about it, live rock and corals all over with coraline all over the glass. Really good for siphoning detritus off the bottom and lots of water flow with no sand blowing issues. I think it works well, just looks different (flame suit on)...looks better.

I do have a deep sand bed in my sump it works real well there and have "yet" to have any sand bed issues.

Dave

Mother Reefer
06-17-2004, 08:15 PM
I have a shallow sand bed and I like it. My tank is 4yrs (in Sept) no nitrates or amn, my readings are very stable. I like the look opposed to bare bottoms which I find very artificial looking and not very pleasing to the eye.(which IMO is one of the top reasons for a tank) I have zoos etc that sit on the s.b. and I can't even image how terrible they'd look sitting on a b.b.

I do water changes on average every 2weeks, I've missed them for various reasons and only got around to doing once a month (x-max for example) and no problems what so ever.

I've read about bare bottoms and they are supposed to be higher maintenance. You still get the filtration help from a s.s.b.

Beverly
06-17-2004, 09:01 PM
Richer,

You are welcome to some of the sandbed. May even need some help with moving tanks, etc. We live downtown, visitor parking at rear of building. PM me with your phone number and I'll let you know when it's going to be happening.

Will,

I think some sand makes the tank look nicer too. Had an indoor goldfish pond a few years back in our old house. Started out with substrate, but couldn't clean it well enough during weekly water changes. People on the GF list i was on were all raving about their bare bottom tanks, but I couldn't see myself doing that. Long story short, I ended up with a BB pond with several polished rocks from the craft store. Got to like the look of it eventually and was a snap to clean.

Your statement that the sandbed helps with Ca and buffering is a good one. However, I'm guessing that over time, this diminishes and the aragonite must be replaced.

Dave,

Would love to see some pics of your BB tanks. Because I'll have no sumps/refugs, it would be easy to siphon out detritus during the weekly water change. Given enough time and Ca, coraline will grow all over the bottom.

M. Reefer,

Looks are definitely part of the appeal of a reef tank. Appreciate your comments.


Thanks for the comments so far. Any other comments, pics - YES- PICS, experiences either pro or con?

Richer
06-17-2004, 10:52 PM
This isn't my tank... but I thought it looked beautiful and its barebottom.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/totm/

This person used starboard on the bottom of the tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=354940

-Richer

Beverly
06-18-2004, 12:17 AM
What is starboard and why would someone use it?

Quagmire
06-18-2004, 12:27 AM
Starboard is the plastic flooring for boats,its white so its suposed to look more natural.You can pick it up at most marine stores.

Bob I
06-18-2004, 02:55 AM
Bev, I have reduced the sandbed in my 50 to about two inches, and in my new 33G semicube it is around one inch. I am quite happy with both. BTW I think an Aragonite sandbed will only buffer if the PH drops. Over the years I have not lost any Aragonite. :mrgreen:

digital canuck
06-18-2004, 03:11 AM
What is starboard and why would someone use it?
It is a product used in the marine industry for boats. In laymans terms (what I needed explained to me :biggrin: ) is that it is HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) - the stuff cutting boards are made out of. It is food grade and will not leach anything into your tank.

Why is is used? To protect the bottom of your tank from any rocks falling if you decide to go Bare Bottom, and it spreads out the pressure of where the rock is sitting on it instead of on glass.

I am just setting up my new 180 gallon tank 72 X 24 X 24 and I just put 1/2 inch HDPE purchased from a local plastics company here in Regina. I have read and am continuing to read a very informative thread on Reef Central - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=223301&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 It will take you a few days to read the entire thread, but after the first 20 pages, you will either like the idea or not. I did. I'm in the 40's now and plan on finishing it.

The secret to making this system - bare bottom work is to have mega flow to keep the detrius in suspension in the water column so it can be skimmed, and siphoning out of any detrius which may collect when you do water changes.

I like the idea. I'm going to be adding water to my tank on the weekend, I'm cooking up my salt water and my RO/DI unit is working overtime to produce.

So what if I don't like it after a reasonable period - I'll just put an inch of sand or gravel on top of the HDPE and I have the benefit of the added protection. Nothing lost except the $100. for the plastic.

Just my 2 cents, and not engaging in a for or against DSB's vs Bare Bottoms - it's been debated to death, just time to read the material and make a decision :smile:

ps: since originally posting this, I've added water to my tank and the HDPE floated away ;-) I took it out until I'm ready to add my live rock from my 115 gal. I'd forgotten that it would float.

Rick

LostMind
06-18-2004, 05:47 AM
I'm with Rick.

Thats exactly my plan as well. I am aiming for 45x turnover in my new 315g tank. It's freaking tough to get high turnover rates in big tanks :)

I think the starboard look is pretty cool somehow.

StirCrazy
06-18-2004, 01:45 PM
I am with the bare bottom group, except I am against the starboard.. to me it looks damn un-natural and ugly. now an idea might be to take the star board and some how glue a layer of sand and rubble to it, but I like just bare bottom as it will soon be growen over anyways.

Steve

Beverly
06-18-2004, 02:06 PM
Steve,

Do you have pics of your BB tank(s)?

StirCrazy
06-18-2004, 10:36 PM
Steve,

Do you have pics of your BB tank(s)?

not yet as mine won't be totaly BB till this fall, I am slowly removing the sand.

there are a lot of nice ones I have seen, and if I recal corectly I think Jamie went BB also so maybe he has some pics that show the bottom.

Steve

Cap'n
06-18-2004, 11:02 PM
Bev, what are you doing with your 42 hex?

Beverly
06-19-2004, 02:51 AM
I am slowly removing the sand.

Steve,

Dumb question, perhaps, but how do you slowly remove the sand without your rock structure collapsing? Also, any particular reason why are you slowly removing it instead of doing it all at once?

LostMind
06-19-2004, 04:13 AM
How to remove the sand? I'd say a wet vac maybe - dunno how to keep the rock structure stable tho.

here is a good link for steve: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35085

StirCrazy
06-19-2004, 02:23 PM
I am slowly removing the sand.

Steve,

Dumb question, perhaps, but how do you slowly remove the sand without your rock structure collapsing? Also, any particular reason why are you slowly removing it instead of doing it all at once?

well I have been syphoning some out every time I do a water change. I do have some under my rock and this fall I think I will have to pull the rock to get at it. If you placed your rocks in a solid mannor you won't make them unstable by removing the sanbd around them.

Steve

Beverly
06-19-2004, 02:37 PM
If you placed your rocks in a solid mannor you won't make them unstable by removing the sanbd around them.

Well, I DID place them in a solid manner :cool: But I used the sandbed to help prop up the rock :confused: So no siphoning sand out for me, I'm afraid. Am getting new tanks all around, so removing the sandbeds at that time would be my best bet, if I remove all of it, that is.

Still not sure what to do..... There's going to be hundreds of pounds of sandbed to get rid of if I go BB :eek:

Scales
06-21-2004, 08:13 PM
I converted my 90 to a starboard bottom last winter. While I liked the initial look of it, it didn't take very long for the coralline to grow and start to cover it up...there are even some zoo's spreading from the rock. I think it looks good now...

Jaws
06-22-2004, 02:39 AM
How long do you think it actually took the coralline to grow over the bottom? Which look do you prefer?

Jaws
06-22-2004, 03:01 AM
here is a good link for steve: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35085

This sounds really interesting! Steve, if you're ever interested in doing something like this, i'd like to give you a hand so maybe this is something I can consider doing when i'm ready.

reefhawk
06-22-2004, 06:52 AM
wish i read this before i put argonite in my new 180. Had it all settled down and water was clear until i hooked up all my plumbing, now it looks like it will never be clear again. flow isn't even that fast yet.Not sure what to do.

Scales
06-22-2004, 04:21 PM
Jaws: It remained fairly white for a couple of months, then the coralline started to grow....a little here and there...but before long (a few more months), most of the starboard is covered. I can't remember when I took out the DSB...about 5 months ago???...I am most intrigued by the way the zoos are dispersing over the bottom...on the rock they are bunched up but they appear to be "looking" for room on the starboard by spreading out a bit.

I liked the look when it was new...it made the tank appear brighter...there was a small amount of brown algae in spots for a couple of weeks...my snails eventually cleaned this up, after which the coralline took over...I am going to try to get some GSP's to grow on it next.

Cheers.

Jaws
06-22-2004, 05:12 PM
Got any before and after or progression pics by any chance?

Scales
06-22-2004, 05:21 PM
Unfortunately, I never seem to have time to take pictures on a regular basis, let alone get them from the camera to the computer and onto the internet...

Chin_Lee
06-22-2004, 06:10 PM
Just curious why people are using Starboard and not other types of plastics IE: Sintra, ABS, PVC

I called PlasticWorks in Surrey and got quoted the following prices for the following types of plastics:
- white Sintra 4x8 sheet is $92 (didnt get thickness for the price quote but they come in 3mm to 6 mm and up)
- black ABS 1/8" is $55 for 4x8 sheet
- shite Starboard 1/2" is $163 for a half sheet (appro 4x8)
- gray PVC 1/8" is $34 for half sheet
- white Sanalite (similar to Starboard) us $150 for half sheet of 4x5

I'm thinking either the ABS or Sintra would work just as well. ABS is black but will get covered with coralline very quickly - it should provide impact protection at 1/4 inch. The sintra will float but if its weighed down by rocks, shouldn't be a problem - its also good for impact absorbtion since its relatively soft

Looking for thoughts/ideas..........

Beverly
06-23-2004, 03:33 PM
I understand why folks would use starboard or similar products in a bare bottom tank, and that is to more evenly distibute the weight of the rock over a larger area. I'm thinking, though, that unless the starboard is siliconed all around the perimeter to the tank walls, detritus will accumulate under the starboard :confused:

Beverly
06-23-2004, 03:35 PM
Bev, what are you doing with your 42 hex?

Turning it into a terrarium for our hallway.

digital canuck
06-24-2004, 01:58 AM
I understand why folks would use starboard or similar products in a bare bottom tank, and that is to more evenly distibute the weight of the rock over a larger area. I'm thinking, though, that unless the starboard is siliconed all around the perimeter to the tank walls, detritus will accumulate under the starboard :confused:

Silicone doesn't adhere to the HDPE types of plastic - tried - even after I'd read it wouldn't work :confused:

I put my plastic real close to the sides. I figure even if some stuff gets in there, it's a heck of a lot less than in a gravel or sand bed :biggrin:

If you leave a larger "trough" around the edge, your flow may move any detrius out back into the water column. The key here as I mentioned before is maximum flow, so detrius can't collect, but gets skimmed out.

Rick

LostMind
06-24-2004, 03:09 AM
The idea behind the staroard is to be able to run more flow - 50x turnover and up is what a lot of people are aiming for. Seems to be very popular technique for the sps obsessed...

With the higher flow rates, people report little to no detritus accumulation.

And according to some people, even if the starboard did allow some detritus to accumulate underneath it, it would be an insignificant amount compared to having a sandbed trapping the detritus.

Just what I've read....

Beverly
06-24-2004, 01:11 PM
I'm thinking either the ABS or Sintra would work just as well. ABS is black but will get covered with coralline very quickly - it should provide impact protection at 1/4 inch. The sintra will float but if its weighed down by rocks, shouldn't be a problem - its also good for impact absorbtion since its relatively soft

Looking for thoughts/ideas..........

I'm looking for other ideas as well and had one thought - another piece of glass. If the glass was cut so it sat directly on tank bottom and not on any of the silicone holding the tank together, you'd have absolutely no chance of detritus getting under there. That would mean at least a 1/4" or so of perimeter where detritus might accumulate, but if you set up your rock right, you could easily it siphon out.

Don't know how thick the glass would have to be to distribute the weight of the rock evenly. Any ideas here?

LostMind
06-24-2004, 03:50 PM
Bev, what's different from using starboard then?

Chin_Lee
06-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Why not just put a 1/4 inch clear acrylic on the bottom? Its shatter resistant, if a rock lands too hard on it, it will only crack but not shatter through and break the glass. I don't really get this starboard thing nor do I see any benefits of using this expensive material - other plastics can still be used even in a high flow tank.

Beverly
06-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Pros for 1/4" glass:

- can get it at any glass shop (there's one about 10 blocks from here)
- 47" x 23" costs $64 (approx. size for the bottom of my largest tank)
- will not float and will adhere to the tank's glass bottom very well with few or no trapped bubbles
- coraline algae will readily grow on it

Cons for any glass:

- heavy
- easily broken during installation and afterward

Don't know the pros or cons for acrylic, except acrylic will not be as easily damaged as glass, but will be harder to come by.

Really, I don't know which would be better - the plastic-type materials or glass. What do you think?

AJ_77
06-24-2004, 04:37 PM
I am not getting the glass-on-glass thing... what is the point? I would think the potential for damage (cracking, chipping) outweighs any benefit, and it's lacking aesthetically... at least the starboard is white (to begin with), and supremely durable,

Beverly
06-24-2004, 05:16 PM
Alan,

Glass is just an idea among many.

Another idea is Plexiglas. Have a small piece and tested it for floating. It sinks easily and will probably adhere well to the bottom glass so there would be no possibility of detritus getting underneath. Plexi can be bought and cut cheaply at Rona.

Don't have a clue where to get starboard around here. Checked the yellow pages under plastics and did not see any mention of it in any of the ads.

Don't know what you mean about glass lacking aesthetically. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

digital canuck
06-25-2004, 12:30 AM
snip...
Don't have a clue where to get starboard around here. Checked the yellow pages under plastics and did not see any mention of it in any of the ads.
snip...

When you call the plastics companies, ask if they carry HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) and if they say never heard of it, tell them it's the plastic that cutting boards are made of - so it's food grade.

Rick

Richer
06-25-2004, 05:50 AM
GE Polymershapes sells starboard (aka. high density polyethylene) and just about any other plastic board, tube, rods, etc.

http://www.gepolymershapes.com/

16536 117th Avenue

-Richer

LostMind
06-25-2004, 07:52 AM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=392144&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

digital canuck
06-25-2004, 03:14 PM
My tank that is :cool:
http://www.activepartners.com/reginareef/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=22 Here are a couple of shots of my new 180 with the white HDPE on the bottom. The tank was set up on June 19, livestock and liverock moved from an existing 115 gal I had.

Yes the back is unsightly with all the powerheads, but with time will come a sump and returns :rolleyes:

Rick

Delphinus
06-25-2004, 03:53 PM
Maybe I'm singular in this opinion, but all of these starboard tanks have a "rocks placed on a cutting board" look to me that I just can't get used to. I'm sorry but there's just nothing natural looking about it! I understand the reasons and blah blah blah that's great and all, but all I see is just rock placed on a cutting board. I concede that the pics are of new setups before there is coralline or whatever, maybe I need to see some more aged setups, but there's something about the edge definition that doesn't seem right to me. Whenever I see an ocean or a reef or whatever, the rock doesn't "end" at the sand, it continues underneath it. If one could somehow address that issue I think it would look better. I'm also guessing that dragonets, wrasses, gobies, and other animals that burrow or bury themselves in sand, will be out of place in setups like this. Oh and forget about jawfish!

More power to you guys trying this, but, I think I'm staying with my sand bed.

Bob I
06-25-2004, 04:09 PM
I am going to have to agree with Tony on this. No matter what small problems a sandbed may have I like them far more than that ugly looking Starboard (at least any pictures I have seen are ugly IMHO) I can't stand the unnatural, sterile look of the stuff. :rolleyes:

AJ_77
06-25-2004, 04:14 PM
Maybe I'm singular in this opinion...
Nope - I agree with you Tony, and also with Beverly when she says "I think some sand makes the tank look nicer too " and "Looks are definitely part of the appeal of a reef tank."

You would have to saw flat bottoms on your rocks to get them to look anywhere near natural, sitting on that stuff. Hmmm... :biggrin:

digital canuck
06-25-2004, 05:24 PM
I would agree that the look of sand is more natural and better looking, but having just cleaned out my 115 after moving the fish and rock to the 180, I was grossed out at how much like a sewer the gravel was.

So I guess I'm giving the cleanliness (cleaner environment - less waste accumulation) aspect a higher priority over the asthetics. That's the nice thing about this hobby, there are more than one ways of accomplishing our goals of maintaining marine fish.

Rick

LostMind
06-25-2004, 06:20 PM
I can't wait to try a BB tank. Or the starboard actually.

At first I thought it looked wrong... but now I am kinda liking it. Its a strange contrast. I plan to let the bottom become overgrown with zoa's and rics to make it appear a bit more natural.

But, honestly I am starting to like the clean, almost sterile look. It's funky somehow.

I am currently at the max for flow in my 120g. I have 2 x velocity T4 pumps for returns and two tunze 6100's on a controller running at 30% and 60% pulse, any higher then that and I have a sandstorm everywhere... I had to remove my 2 maxijet 1200's cuz they just added a little too much flow and the sand bed would not calm down.

Delphinus
06-25-2004, 08:03 PM
Your reasons are all good. Like I said, if you're into it, more power to you. I just can't get away from the "I just placed rock onto a smooth white surface" look. It's not that it's sterile, no reef tank is sterile, but it does have some kind of clinical feel to it.

I like AJ_77's suggestion and actually the same thought occured to me, i.e., if you could shave the bottom rocks to have a flat surface it might look a little better. I suppose with a little bit creativity, people will come up with other ideas too. The hard based sandy bottom as suggested by Stircrazy and in one of the links above looks pretty promising.

That said, I still think that there are animals that require a sandy substrate, and removing that sandbed precludes you from considering them in your reef in the future. Thus, I still maintain that, although it's a valid choice, it is a carefully measured choice.

Beverly
06-25-2004, 08:47 PM
At first I thought it looked wrong... but now I am kinda liking it. Its a strange contrast. I plan to let the bottom become overgrown with zoa's and rics to make it appear a bit more natural.

Yeah, it looks wrong to me too, but, dang, I'm still seriously considering using Plexi for the bottom of our tank. May not stand out as much as the starboard, but will certainly have that sterile look :neutral:

Was also considering making sure I had growth of some organisms other than coraline on the bottom. When I think of that alternative, I only see another detritus trap and more stuff to have to go around when siphoning out the bottom.

Currently have some zoo frags in my BB 2.5g nano. I feed the tank nothing, yet I get detritus just from the rock the zoos are on resulting in a bit of cyano on the back of the tank. Gotta siphon the bottom out every couple of weeks. It's kind of a pita to siphon the 2.5g. What the heck am I gonna do with a 37g, a 67g and 120g, all of which are 24" high :eek: Probably get a long freaking hose :rolleyes:

Thanks for the pics, Rick :smile: Gives me some ideas about how my tanks might look.

bear27
06-30-2004, 04:18 PM
Has anybody considered useing a foam or concrete mix, You can shape it and mold it anyway you like and when it cures its just like not haveing anythin on the bottom at all. You could even mold your live rock right into it for a real natural look

albert_dao
06-30-2004, 06:19 PM
The only thing about the foam is that it deteriorates under intense illumination. If you're confident that you can get coverage over the stuff within 6 months, you should be fine though.

I actually might try it with my next display tank.