LFS claimed wild caught fishes are better

[mrhasan]

Well reefers from Calgary must know about Gold's aquarium since they always carry the best deals in down in both livestock and equipment. The other day I was asking the owner which fishes are captive bred, he said that he stopped keeping captive bred since wild ones are more resistant to diseases and are much more colorful. He even gave the technical reasoning for claiming that wild ones are more resistant to diseases because the captive bred are all coming from (more or less) a single generation and hence they are more pron to diseases (its like keeping on taking the same medication over and over again and that person' generation will slowly develop resistant to the medicine and thus the medicine will not work and hence the disease can take over).

I got really confused because I thought captive bred are more resistant to "aquarium" diseases. His logic seems reasonable to me too.

What do you people think?

[Reefgoat]

I can't speak to the current situation with captive breeding as I have no first hand experience. In the long term I would think that proper selective breeding should be able to produce fish that are both as beautiful as any wild specimen as well as hardier in a captive environment.

[mrhasan]

That's what I think too but that claim got me thinking. Apart from the ethical issue, the rest of the claims seem valid.

Would love to get more opinions. Because that store sells livestock for dead cheap!

[Enigma]

Curious. I purchased a tank bred fish there five weeks ago.

[Aquattro]

Wild caught are cheaper, so likely more profit....

[mrhasan]

I think tank bred are way too hardy.

Just to do "kind of" an experiment, I added a captive bred clownfish on the very day when I received my cured live rock (no fish police I hope :P). And guess what? It is still kicking and way too playful (tank's running more than a month now). Then I got a wild one few weeks after adding the first one, and suddenly it stopped eating, mouths were stuck open and I knew it would get ich very soon and I was true and had to put it out of its misery.

This caused me to be curious since my situation is either caused by the fish being wild or the fish being sick initially!

[mrhasan]

Wild caught are cheaper, so likely more profit....

Extremely cheap! CB clownfishes go around for like $30 while wild ones are llike $15! Tempting but still I don't want to get wild ones unless I am sure that they are actually better than CB.

[lpsreefer]

Golds takes care of all the fishes in the store. You'll almost never see a died fish. Also they make sure they qt the fish until it looks healthy.
I'm not to sure who you where talking to but they have all been into salt/fresh water for many years. with Dave, Doug, Kevin and Ollie. That's a lot of experiance.
There is a lot of talk about captive bred and wild but I have yet to see a captive bred tang, trigger, etc.. Not saying it can't be done. Clowns sure why not.

I like when you have a question they well anwser it to the best of thier knownledge.

Almost all my fish are from golds or red coral that I have bought from stores.

[lpsreefer]

If you qt any wild fish you should have a problem.
Cb fish have already been qt.

[mrhasan]

Yah gold's does have a very good rep and that's why I think there's something reasonable for not selling captive bred.

About the dead fish in the tank, I actually saw quite a few dead fishes in few of my visits over there :P

[chandigz]

I think the idea of cb being less disease resistent. Is because they have never been exposed to disease or parasites. Their immune system hasn't ever had to fight off anything. They have no antibodies or resistance. Like when we get vacinated we are being exposed to a virus for our immune system to build antibodies.

[reefwars]

I think tank bred are way too hardy.

Just to do "kind of" an experiment, I added a captive bred clownfish on the very day when I received my cured live rock (no fish police I hope :P). And guess what? It is still kicking and way too playful (tank's running more than a month now). Then I got a wild one few weeks after adding the first one, and suddenly it stopped eating, mouths were stuck open and I knew it would get ich very soon and I was true and had to put it out of its misery.

This caused me to be curious since my situation is either caused by the fish being wild or the fish being sick initially!

i think damsels in particular do better in the cycle process than most other fish and are very hardy:P

[reefwars]

I think the idea of cb being less disease resistent. Is because they have never been exposed to disease or parasites. Their immune system hasn't ever had to fight off anything. They have no antibodies or resistance. Like when we get vacinated we are being exposed to a virus for our immune system to build antibodies.


+1

plus wild caught fish are street smart:P

[mrhasan]

i think damsels in particular do better in the cycle process than most other fish and are very hardy:P

Haha. I know but I just didn't want to go through the trouble of removing the damsel afterwards.

But I was pretty surprised because the clown went through my cycle without any problem. From the very first day, it was eating like pig and from the 2nd take it started taking food from my hand. It was awesome :D

[mrhasan]

+1

plus wild caught fish are street smart:P

So you think wild caught are better to get? (Will save me lots of money :D)

[reefwars]

Haha. I know but I just didn't want to go through the trouble of removing the damsel afterwards.

But I was pretty surprised because the clown went through my cycle without any problem. From the very first day, it was eating like pig and from the 2nd take it started taking food from my hand. It was awesome :D


clownfish are part of the damsel family:P

[reefwars]

So you think wild caught are better to get? (Will save me lots of money :D)


no i dont think they are better, but finding them reguarily and then proving they are tank bred is another story. most of the fish stores around here have wild caught fish, the odd tank bred fish that comes through are mostly clowns and bangers.

[mrhasan]

clownfish are part of the damsel family:P

Oh yes I forgot :redface:

[Reef_Geek]

I think Gold's meant well in their opinion, but may have been narrow in perspective.

Keep in mind, by the time that a wild caught fish has reached the store, the greater proportion of fish that died along the way are not offered for sale. Numerous were caught and held prior to consolidating to a local exporting shipper, then numerous die in that transit, then some die post arrival to a wholesaler in Canada or US, then some make it to our LFS. In contrast, captive bred have higher survival rates come straight from the farm to the north american wholesaler/LFS. By the time a wild caught is offered side by side with a captive bred, you're looking at one heck of a fighter in the wild fish. Physiologically they are comparable but costs of an aquaculture operation is going to require higher prices.

The questions is not whether you want captive bred for hardiness... the difference is likely not statistically significant if you ran 100 trials against common aquarium diseases. The question will be simply your choice. It's a purchase preference in ethics, not in utility. No right or wrong either way, fisheries exist to provide for society, we're just not eating these fish. They're not on the endangered list.

[lockrookie]

I think Gold's meant well in their opinion, but may have been narrow in perspective.

Keep in mind, by the time that a wild caught fish has reached the store, the greater proportion of fish that died along the way are not offered for sale. Numerous were caught and held prior to consolidating to a local exporting shipper, then numerous die in that transit, then some die post arrival to a wholesaler in Canada or US, then some make it to our LFS. In contrast, captive bred have higher survival rates come straight from the farm to the north american wholesaler/LFS. By the time a wild caught is offered side by side with a captive bred, you're looking at one heck of a fighter in the wild fish. Physiologically they are comparable but costs of an aquaculture operation is going to require higher prices.

The questions is not whether you want captive bred for hardiness... the difference is likely not statistically significant if you ran 100 trials against common aquarium diseases. The question will be simply your choice. It's a purchase preference in ethics, not in utility. No right or wrong either way, fisheries exist to provide for society, we're just not eating these fish. They're not on the endangered list.

+1 i was goingto comment the same. who knows how many fish are lost in transit i try to purchase aquacultured if i can find its origin but yet if i wish a certian fish/critter not bred in captivity am i going to pass it up possibly not. but for the most part i prefer captive bred

[gregzz4]

I too prefer CB fish whenever I can find them, and I completely understand in-breeding problems
I am guilty of buying fish when I see them as they are only available as WC
Then I have to try to feed them ....

I disagree with the thoughts of CB fish being more susceptible to diseases, or WC fish being more immune

It's all about our husbandry

[mrhasan]

Yah. I would also prefer to get captive bred but upon no other option, the wild got surplus for our hobby :P

[lockrookie]

my husbandry sucks if i was a good husband id be in bed with my wife instead of up watching movies and lurking canreef just sayin..

ontopic .. do as you wish and that which you are comfortable with. everyone has an opinion one way or the other. the fact we take these creatures from an ocean and into our tiny tanks in itself is wrong. but it is wha it is. and has been since before i was born

[mrhasan]

Everything has good sides and bad sides :D

[gregzz4]

my husbandry sucks if i was a good husband id be in bed with my wife instead of up watching movies and lurking canreef
Yup, me too

Later ...

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Now a lot of my fish (all my clowns for example) are captive bred and others are "ethically" net caught (most of my fish from Island Pets' Vanuatu suppliers). Currently I am raising 8 Bangaii babies (largest is 2cm+ including tail) so I hope to contribute to the pool of CB fish in the future, especially fish that can easily be overfished like the Bangaiis. And yes, it is a lot of work, time and hassle to raise the live food every day and try to convert the babies over to frozen or eventually to pellets.

Around here, CB clowns are often a little bit more expensive than WC, but Bangaiis are the same price for CB and WC, which I don't understand. There is a premium on CB clowns, especially the morphs, but no premium for Bangaiis. Hard to encourage more hobbyist breeders of Bangaiis if all they are paid is $12.50 or less per fish at the LFS and the broods are small and take months to raise on live food. Financially, not worth it. BUT baby Bangaiis are sooooooo cute. I will probably end up keeping most of this first batch just because the offspring are worth more to me than $12.50 at the LFS. Yes, privately can sell Bangaiis for $20-25 (one or two at a time) but for larger scale breeding, selling to LFS makes more sense.

From my own experience with clowns, at least with Ocellaris species, the CB are waaaaay hardier than the WC. I currently own 6 CB Oc., 2 CB True Percs, and 2 CB Black Oc. (all bred locally by Timbits - a Canreef member).

[paddyob]

I do not oppose tank bred at all, but the wild caught would be less susceptible to inbreeding.

Tank bred has come a long way, but consider all the designer clowns. It's not natural. May look cool but it's s defect to me. I have no interest in owning them. To me it's a fish with imperfections.

My clowns are wild caught. Beautiful. Perfect. Healthy.

But again, it's an argument I have no scientific backing for.

Wild caught hurts the reefs over all. So personally I'm torn on the issue.

[BlueWorldAquatic]

I can attest to the pro's and con's of CB fish.

As a store that tries to get as much CB fish in the store, there are a few factors that we have to consider. We deal with the likes of ORA and such, and have our own local breeding facility for a few species of clownfish, gobies, and seahorses


These are some of the things we have come accoss.
-CB fish are more expensive than wild caught
-CB take a lot of time and work to get to sellable size.
-CB are used to man made water
-CB seem to see less disease, but that could be due to the lack of pathogens in our water, doesn't prover they are more or less immune.

WC are cheaper, but mortality rates are lower
WC have more selection, and there are not as much selection of CB fish.

[mrhasan]

I can attest to the pro's and con's of CB fish.

WC are cheaper, but mortality rates are lower
WC have more selection, and there are not as much selection of CB fish.

Mortality rates are lower in WC?:neutral:

[BlueWorldAquatic]

packaging, shipping times, etc.

especially stress.

from shipper to retail mortality rates are lower, if you buy from a fish farm (ORA) much higher.

[mrhasan]

That's a +1 for buying WC :P

[Enigma]

I had never really thought about the mortality rates before. Of the six CB fish I have purchased, three have died. Of the four WC fish I have purchased, none have died. While I tend to prefer to purchase CB fish, my wallet is now suggesting otherwise.

[mrhasan]

I bought one CB and one WC clownfish and the WC died. I guess I got a bad fish or something.

But yes wallet do suggest to get WC. After all, wallets are unethical :P

[PFoster]

CB clowns are much more hardy to our aquariums. Now putting a CB clown back into the wild... probably not the best idea but I dont think too many people in Canada will be doing this :P

WC often come in with diseases.

That being said the store owner was correct with respect to SOME of the CB clowns. Clowns are currently being bead just about everywhere; sri lanka isreal, Indo, USA, canada etc.
Typically the ones from overseas are WAY cheaper but their color is also VERY poor and they dont seem to be very hardy at all.
The orange in these clowns is more of a yellow.
The white is drab and the black is almost non existent.

I would guess that his experiences with respect to CB clowns is based on the ones ordered from overseas, in which case he is absolutely correct.
But good quality clowns from just about anywhere in North America are WAY better than wilds IMO.

[Snaz]

Psuedochromis fridmani aka Orchid Dottyback is often bred in captivity and makes a great addition to most tanks.

Here is my CB dotty:

http://snaz.com/marine/dotty4.jpg

[Enigma]

CB clowns are much more hardy to our aquariums. Now putting a CB clown back into the wild... probably not the best idea but I dont think too many people in Canada will be doing this :P

WC often come in with diseases.

That being said the store owner was correct with respect to SOME of the CB clowns. Clowns are currently being bead just about everywhere; sri lanka isreal, Indo, USA, canada etc.
Typically the ones from overseas are WAY cheaper but their color is also VERY poor and they dont seem to be very hardy at all.
The orange in these clowns is more of a yellow.
The white is drab and the black is almost non existent.

I would guess that his experiences with respect to CB clowns is based on the ones ordered from overseas, in which case he is absolutely correct.
But good quality clowns from just about anywhere in North America are WAY better than wilds IMO.

I've lost two CB occ. clowns. But, here are the two who remain . . .

http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a435/Iasgair/IMG_2059.jpg

The gorgeous orange one is from a breeder here in Calgary, and was purchased by me at Red Coral. I don't know who the breeder is (the breeder sold to Red Coral and not to me) but his colours are amazing. He looks a bit like he's had some black airbrushed along his spine.

I did notice washed out CB clowns at Piscies the other day. They did look very yellow. They were no where near as nice as our little Nemo, and I figured they all had to be sick with something.

I don't know where the black occ. was bred, but it is a very nice specimen, too.

[mrhasan]

^ Those are some really nice CB! I never saw a CB clown with that bright color. Not only pisces but Big Al's CBs are also on the yellow side instead of being red.

BTW how's the price tag in Red coral? Never been there since I am more into Big Al's since they are more reasonably priced compared to Pisces.

[Enigma]

^ Those are some really nice CB! I never saw a CB clown with that bright color. Not only pisces but Big Al's CBs are also on the yellow side instead of being red.

BTW how's the price tag in Red coral? Never been there since I am more into Big Al's since they are more reasonably priced compared to Pisces.

I paid $15 for him, as he was tiny at the time. They had some Vancouver bred ones that were a smidge bigger than this guy and his siblings, and they were the same price. The Vancouver ones were very nice, too.

His colour has become more vibrant as he's aged. He didn't look like that in the store. He's still quite little maybe around 1.5" . . . He's almost doubled in size since I got him. I did lose another one that I bought at the same time, from the same batch.

[mrhasan]

GREAT! I am going to Red Coral once I come back from my home country to get my other stockings :D

Hope they open up by then.

[Enigma]

http://snaz.com/marine/dotty4.jpg

Lovely. Have you noticed any obvious visual differences between the CB and the WC?

[Snaz]

Lovely. Have you noticed any obvious visual differences between the CB and the WC?

This one's tailfin is transparent at the top which I thought looked unique and why I picked her... I doubt this variation is a result of CB though.

[mrhasan]

Maybe the genes ran short of the color ;)

[Myka]

I'm having a really hard time with this thread. It really makes me want to choke someone who would suggest a hobbyist buy a wild caught fish over a captive bred fish.

I would rather kill 100 captive bred fish than kill 1 wild caught fish. Once a fish is taken from the wild it can never be returned. Just in the most recent years has there been some interest in sustainable collection, although the definition of "sustainable" isn't particularly clear yet since there are so many different regions and ecosystems within ecosystems all over the worlds' reefs.

As others already pointed out, there are many fish that die long before they make it to the LFS display tank. Consumers often know little about the journey a fish takes from the ocean to their display tank, and seem to forget about all the fish that don't make it simply because the consumer doesn't see them! Wild caught Clownfish and Dottybacks, which are both easily found captive bred, are both particularly susceptible to Brooklynella. Wild Banggai Cardinals are suspected to often perish from a viral diease that we are just learning about recently and currently. ORA has over 50 different species of fish on their availability list, so there are lots to choose from. Sustainable Aquatics has notoriously LOVELY colored fish. Captive bred fish with poor coloring are a result of poor growout husbandry and nutrition.

For those LFS that claim they lose more captive bred fish than wild caught fish, they need new CB suppliers! A good CB supplier (inc hobbyist breeders) will guarantee their fish. A CB supplier that doesn't guarantee the health of their fish should not be dealt with imo. Even ORA replaces DOAs in my experiences. I've even had ORA replace "designer" clowns (read: expensive clowns) that did poorly upon arrival and perished when the rest of the order did great. ORA is a good company to deal with. I would rather see no captive bred fish in an LFS rather than poor captive bred fish since poor CB fish make a bad name for the whole lot of them.

In my opinion, unless you are a breeder you should not be purchasing many species of wild caught fish including (but not limited to): Banggai Cardinals, Clownfish, Dottybacks, Elacatinus sp Gobies, Assessors, and many Blennies.

If people are having poor luck with their captive bred fish, the sour look should be placed upon the breeder (or possibly the LFS if they have poor husbandry), not the fish itself. There is no reason a captive bred fish should be inferior to a wild caught fish. In my experiences and in my opinion, captive bred fish are superior to wild caught fish given an even playing field!

[Reef_Geek]

I understand your sentiment and am sympathetic to your vision. I was the broodstock manager at Proaquatix and have worked with Bill, Arlene, and Katy (the Addisons) at C-Quest. Certainly one extreme is a hobbyist's choice in strictly captive bred. However, there are fish that are abundant such as Royal Grammas, Chromis, shrimps etc... and there are fish caught from areas with effective management through regulations and meaningful enforcement (eg Hawaii, Florida)... and then the other extreme are fish caught with destructive practices, no regulations, or regulations without enforcement... or species that have no reasonableness as pets (eg some diet-specific inverts like starfishes or slugs, butterflies etc). So there's every shade of gray in between these scenarios, and then there's the reality of the market and aquaculture. Costs are high in operations, many species are not economically feasible, bulk of hobbyists have a certain threshold of willingness to pay, and then there's what people want. For example, we'd never have tank raised turbo snails or blue legged hermits due to abundance of cheap wild specimens, but most tanks will want/need them. Realistically, we'd likely always have hobbyists wanting pygmy angels and tangs... it's just what people want.

So in between, there's lots of variations. Just as some folks will choose to be vegan for moral reasons, bulk of consumers are naturally omnivorous.

[Reef_Geek]

PS. I wouldn't let Gold Aquarium get under anyone's skin with this CB comment.

They've been around for a while and offer good livestock prices... but some things that they say are a bit whacky.

I was there yesterday looking at a bottle of Seachem Reef Complete and I think a bottle of Reef Carbonate. I just wanted the guy's opinion so I asked him, should I get both bottles? He said I have to get everything (and proceeded to point out 8 different bottles) or my reef tank would start to die in about a month. I was actually hoping for some intelligent thoughts on the reactivity of CA and carbonate but that obviously wasn't where the conversation went. He just kept rambling on as I smiled and nodded, ending with him giving me his business card to call when I needed more advice. I did pick up a nice little red monti frag for $20, pre-mounted.

[Myka]

Hi Reef Geek, welcome to the forums! I see you're relatively new here. I appreciate your point of view and experiences in this subject, and I'm interested to read the articles you have in your signature. :)

In your first post (just after mine) when you say "your" are you referring to me or the OP? I agree with your sentiments on the subject; the hobby will likely always be "omnivorous". I just get frustrated when hobbyists are buying wild caught fish that are readily available captive bred. I really think it should be more difficult to import these fish than it currently is. We are getting closer to being able to offer captive bred fish such as Dwarf Angels, but it will be hard to beat a wild caught price when it takes many months to raise these fish to salable size!

[mrhasan]

Very interesting discussions going on :D

[Snaz]

He said I have to get everything (and proceeded to point out 8 different bottles) or my reef tank would start to die in about a month.

Many LFS do this sadly. Chemicals, food and other consumables are either good profit or inventory that has been sitting around too long that they are desperate to sell. Have a look at some of the older bottles on the shelves, if they have an imploded appearance it is because they are so old that the internal air/gases have slowly leaked out THROUGH the vinyl bottle of the years. Don't buy those ones for sure.

Sorry for the hijack...

On topic the hobbyists and industry need to develop a list of our hobby fish that are endangered, threatened and abundant etc. Similar to what the Canadian food stores are doing now with the fish we eat.
http://www.seachoice.org/search/

[rastaangel]

I agree with you mindy. In fact if it were my call a wild caught fish would cost 3x more then a captive bred of the same species. I wont buy a fish that I can buy a captive bred alternative of and at the rate things are moving with breeding it wont be long until 100 species are on the market.

[Reef_Geek]

Hi Reef Geek, welcome to the forums! I see you're relatively new here. I appreciate your point of view and experiences in this subject, and I'm interested to read the articles you have in your signature. :)

In your first post (just after mine) when you say "your" are you referring to me or the OP? I agree with your sentiments on the subject; the hobby will likely always be "omnivorous". I just get frustrated when hobbyists are buying wild caught fish that are readily available captive bred. I really think it should be more difficult to import these fish than it currently is. We are getting closer to being able to offer captive bred fish such as Dwarf Angels, but it will be hard to beat a wild caught price when it takes many months to raise these fish to salable size!

Thanks Myka. I meant I applaud your (specifically to you) conviction and sentiment to cb.

Ideally speaking, it would be natural to assume (assumption 1) that conscientious hobbyists would buy cb when it is available over wild caught of the same and would be willing to pay the price required for aquaculture (as they said they would). It may even be easy to believe (assumption 2) that if a new species of cb were available, it would sell... or at least inch towards increasing popularity of cb. I used to believe this, but have found that this is simply not true. I captive bred Royal Grammas but found that the small larvae (compared to clowns) meant more work and lower survival rates to metamorphosis. Wild caught were readily available in reasonable health quality, and at prices that make cb unsellable (assumption 1 false). There were species that were natural to pursue once I was captive breeding that family group, but found that just because you can provide it cb, doesn't mean that people want it (assumption 2 false). Example of species that were produced but did not sell well: Meiacanthus mosambicus (not all that colourful), M. smithi, Pseudochromis polynemus (not all that colourful), P. steenei and P aureus... cb or not they're still a big aggressive dottyback with only males having colour.

I also don't believe you can do away without wild caught. I grew up working in an aquarium shop in Halifax, I'm confident that any shop that stopped offering wild caught would be uncompetitive. In terms of aquaculture limitations, many species aren't economically feasible due to their long larval phase--the costs of rearing them would be cost prohibitive for any consumer to buy. Even if price weren't a factor, there's difficulty with live foods needed that are smaller than rotifers. There's been some break-throughs with Centropyge, Zebrasoma, Synchiropus, and many post-larval trapped & reared fishes here and there... but there's not been any scalability to their methods to provide thousands of specimens... sometimes success has been limited to hundreds of hours of work to rear about 10 fish.

I've since gone for more school and learned quite a bit about business (and left the fish business). Marketing simply doesn't work like this. It's not wise to produce it and then try to 'market' it. Marketing is about finding out what are the different segments (groups) of consumers that make up the current market, what does each segment value/want, how much they are willing to pay, and what is your bulletproof business model/plan to win market share against incumbents. Only then should a product go to market. It would be like finding out that (not true, just hypothetical) 30% of hobbyists want the cheapest fish no matter what, 10% want cb no matter what, 60% want cb if available in good colour/size/health but no more than on average $5 more than wild... then a farm should target to go to market but manage its costs so the fish can retail at the fair market value for the biggest segment (it can't stay in business based on the 10% die hard fans). Unfortunately, the economics just don't work for what consumers are really willing to pay due to the labor intensity of aquaculture. That's why Frank Hoff started Instant Ocean Hatcheries in 1974 and 38 years later, there's still only about 4 north american companies (of notable scale) doing marine ornamental aquaculture. ORA, as successful as they are, had to have financial support from grants and corporate donations for many years. (my understanding only, but debatable) Proaquatix, Sustainable Aquatics, C-Quest were started by private monies, whose stakeholders loved fish more than other investments opportunities.

And so you have it, the Coles notes version of why cb is only a supplemental supply of livestock at present.