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View Full Version : Return Pump Recommendation Poll


ensquire
04-20-2012, 04:59 AM
Looks like my Quiet One 4000 is going to be too small for a 90 Gallon tank.
There is a 30 gallon sump as well. 2 - 90 elbows , 1 - 45 elbow, 2 line manifold on a 1" return line. also a ball valve.
2 ft of horizontal and 4" of vertical.


Pumps I am looking at are:

#1 Sedra KSP-20000A
http://www.conceptaquatics.ca/index.php/sedra-ksp-1000a-8.html

#2 Water Blaster HY-7000W Pump
http://www.conceptaquatics.ca/index.php/water-blaster-hy-5000w-pump-1.html

#3 Lifegard Aquatics Quiet One 9000 Water Pumphttp://www.conceptaquatics.ca/index.php/lifegard-aquatics-quiet-one-1200-water-pump-6.html

or Your suggestions on #4

gregzz4
04-20-2012, 05:08 AM
Eheim 1262

The Grizz
04-20-2012, 05:10 AM
Waveline DC5000 would be my choice, go to www.rlss.ca to check it out. I believe or a least hope Mr. Dave @ concepts will be bringing some of these in as well as the larger size pump that is supposed to be coming out.

lockrookie
04-20-2012, 05:25 AM
i run a 4000 on my 90 but i would go with a bit less for flow than what your planning your sump may not handle that much flow through it try an ehiem 3000 would be good for that tank. ideal flow is 5 to 7 times through sump total water volume. so if you have 90 blus say 10 in sump makes times 7.. you wouldwant a pump that could flow 700gph ish at 4 or 5' of head. keep in mind as well what your overflow ccan handle in terms of flow as well if your overflow can only handle 600 gph and your pushing 700 things could get wet.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 05:30 AM
Waveline DC5000 would be my choice, go to www.rlss.ca to check it out. I believe or a least hope Mr. Dave @ concepts will be bringing some of these in as well as the larger size pump that is supposed to be coming out.

HMMMMMMMMMM nice pump and DC to boot, controller would be awesome, but I wonder if it would be big enough with only 1320 GPH. There would be a fair bit of head loss and I think I should be looking for 10x turnover. Yes - No ???

gregzz4
04-20-2012, 05:33 AM
Have you looked at this (http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator) yet ?
Not all pumps are listed, but it's still useful

ensquire
04-20-2012, 05:34 AM
i run a 4000 on my 90 but i would go with a bit less for flow your sump may not handle that much flow through it try an ehiem 3000 would be good for that tank. ideal flow is 5 to 7 times through sump total water volume. so if you have 90 blus say 10 in sump makes times 7.. you wouldwant a pump that could flow 700gph ish at 4 or 5' of head. keep in mind as well what your overflow ccan handle in terms of flow as well if your overflow can only handle 600 gph and your pushing 700 things could get wet.

Do you run your 4000 wide open or throttled back ???
Using your formula, the 4000 would work on mine, as it calculates out at around 660, using RC calculator.

lockrookie
04-20-2012, 05:36 AM
Do you run your 4000 wide open or throttled back ???
Using your formula, the 4000 would work on mine, as it calculates out at around 660, using RC calculator.

wide open my over flow boxcan handle 1200gph

lastlight
04-20-2012, 05:49 AM
Eheim 1262

+1

Was perfect on my 97g.

Myka
04-20-2012, 05:50 AM
I think I should be looking for 10x turnover. Yes - No ???

6-7x turnover is ideal. Keep in mind the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer (in the sump), not to provide flow for the tank.

I have a Poseidon PS3 on my 90, and it is a good match. I'm replacing this tank with one that is about 100 gallons, and I will continue to use the PS3. They are great pumps and deadly silent. These pumps are now called Blueline Velocity T3. If you want an internal pump though, I would recommend the Eheim 1262 or the Eheim Compact 3000 (or maybe the 4000? I don't have time to do the math for you) if you want a cheaper model.

lockrookie
04-20-2012, 05:55 AM
for the 10 times flow is mainly for sps tanks and you can achieve that with a couple powerheads.. i almostmade this mistakewith the 180 i was going to bug a pump to double the pump o had now plus then i re read my old build smacked my head or being too stupid and now im planning either a ehiem 5000 or quiet one 6000

Myka
04-20-2012, 06:00 AM
for the 10 times flow is mainly for sps tanks and you can achieve that with a couple powerheads..

Flow through the sump has nothing to do with what type of corals are kept. As I said above, the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer water to process. The skimmer can only process so much water, so increasing flow through the sump does no good. If you have a grossly over-sized skimmer then increasing the flow through the sump could possibly achieve a bit heavier skimming, but that would be negligible.

Powerheads are for provide flow for the corals and preventing detritus settling. For SPS corals you're looking in the 50-100x turnover range where LPS and softies are happy with 10-25x turnover.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 06:09 AM
Have you looked at this (http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator) yet ?
Not all pumps are listed, but it's still useful

I was using that very calculator, It is to bad it didn't have more pumps listed.

lockrookie
04-20-2012, 06:14 AM
Flow through the sump has nothing to do with what type of corals are kept. As I said above, the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer water to process. The skimmer can only process so much water, so increasing flow through the sump does no good. If you have a grossly over-sized skimmer then increasing the flow through the sump could possibly achieve a bit heavier skimming, but that would be negligible.

Powerheads are for provide flow for the corals and preventing detritus settling. For SPS corals you're looking in the 50-100x turnover range where LPS and softies are happy with 10-25x turnover.

so i missed a zero at the end for sps :razz: i personally dont even have that much flow within the tank my new tank will have the option to turn on 2 more power heads if i choose but if he had 50 to 100 times in a 90 he must be careful of what substrate he adds to the tank.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 06:19 AM
6-7x turnover is ideal. Keep in mind the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer (in the sump), not to provide flow for the tank.

I have a Poseidon PS3 on my 90, and it is a good match. I'm replacing this tank with one that is about 100 gallons, and I will continue to use the PS3. They are great pumps and deadly silent. These pumps are now called Blueline Velocity T3. If you want an internal pump though, I would recommend the Eheim 1262 or the Eheim Compact 3000 (or maybe the 4000? I don't have time to do the math for you) if you want a cheaper model.

Flow through the sump has nothing to do with what type of corals are kept. As I said above, the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer water to process. The skimmer can only process so much water, so increasing flow through the sump does no good. If you have a grossly over-sized skimmer then increasing the flow through the sump could possibly achieve a bit heavier skimming, but that would be negligible.

Powerheads are for provide flow for the corals and preventing detritus settling. For SPS corals you're looking in the 50-100x turnover range where LPS and softies are happy with 10-25x turnover.

Thanks for the input Mindy,
That will be next poll (Skimmer) :biggrin:
Looks like the 4000 will do the job based in RC calculator.

As for your second post, are you saying that for a 90 gallon SPS tank that a person should be looking for 4500 to 9000 GPH turnover ? If so looks like I need a couple of more powerheads.:wink:

RDNanoGuy
04-20-2012, 06:19 AM
Ehiem 1260 or 1262. Best submersible pumps you can get.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 06:30 AM
so i missed a zero at the end for sps :razz: i personally dont even have that much flow within the tank my new tank will have the option to turn on 2 more power heads if i choose but if he had 50 to 100 times in a 90 he must be careful of what substrate he adds to the tank.

What are you using for powerheads ? Substrate ?
I will be using Crushed Coral and oolite sand on the 90. I have sugar size in my 36 with a couple of K4s and with my gobie digging around, I do get sandstorms.

lockrookie
04-20-2012, 07:16 AM
What are you using for powerheads ? Substrate ?
I will be using Crushed Coral and oolite sand on the 90. I have sugar size in my 36 with a couple of K4s and with my gobie digging around, I do get sandstorms.

i like the look of sugar sand and make use of sand sifting stars and an orange spot goby right now in teh 90 i have a koralia 3 and 2 plus the flow from return pump but i dont have alot of sps..yet.. but my new tank the 180 will have 2 koralia 1050s and 2 koralia 750's unlessi can find another used koralia 3 to match one i own already.

should i have more flow ..maybe .. but thats what future upgrades are for.. nothings perfect thefirst time

claymax
04-20-2012, 08:54 AM
Waveline DC5000 would be my choice, go to www.rlss.ca to check it out. I believe or a least hope Mr. Dave @ concepts will be bringing some of these in as well as the larger size pump that is supposed to be coming out.

yeah what greg said, thse pumps are affordable powerful and controllable
what more could you ask for?

gregzz4
04-20-2012, 09:35 AM
I opted for Not sugar sand. I found enough info that lead me to Not have sandstorms with powerheads
I bought this sand (http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/cs-amaxs30/Caribsea+Aragamax+Select++Sand+++Substrate+-+30+lbs..html) , or something very close to it

fishoholic
04-20-2012, 03:13 PM
Looks like the 4000 will do the job based in RC calculator.


It should, I run a 6000 on my 230g tank.

Myka
04-20-2012, 04:08 PM
if he had 50 to 100 times in a 90 he must be careful of what substrate he adds to the tank.

I have about 50 times turnover in my tank plus a Tunze Wavebox. I would have more flow, but the LPS are already mad about this higher flow. I'm in the process of moving all LPS out, and will increase flow for the SPS. I had Caribsea Select sand in there that stayed on the bottom, although divots were made where there is heavy flow. The tank is mostly bare bottom now that I removed most of the sand (nothing to do with the flow). Caribsea Special sand is more coarse and is my favourite sand, it is the best sand to use for high flow. It is pricier than the others though.

As for your second post, are you saying that for a 90 gallon SPS tank that a person should be looking for 4500 to 9000 GPH turnover ? If so looks like I need a couple of more powerheads.:wink:

Is your tank SPS dominant? If you have any LPS or softies you will have to keep the flow on the lower end of the (4500 gph or so) or you will blow the tissue off the fleshy corals. If you just have SPS or almost all SPS look at two Tunze 6105 powerheads. That's what I'm going to put in my tank once all the LPS are out. They are a good fit for a 90 gallon SPS tank. I will also put my Tunze 6055 behind the rocks to provide flow in that area as well. That's about 8300 gph.

One thing to note, turnover calculations have changed since propeller-type powerheads have dominated the market. Since propeller powerheads provide gentler, wider flow patterns we can get much higher turnover than we could with impeller-type powerheads that provide a very direct, jet-like flow pattern.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 07:00 PM
Is your tank SPS dominant? If you have any LPS or softies you will have to keep the flow on the lower end of the (4500 gph or so) or you will blow the tissue off the fleshy corals. If you just have SPS or almost all SPS look at two Tunze 6105 powerheads. That's what I'm going to put in my tank once all the LPS are out. They are a good fit for a 90 gallon SPS tank. I will also put my Tunze 6055 behind the rocks to provide flow in that area as well. That's about 8300 gph.

One thing to note, turnover calculations have changed since propeller-type powerheads have dominated the market. Since propeller powerheads provide gentler, wider flow patterns we can get much higher turnover than we could with impeller-type powerheads that provide a very direct, jet-like flow pattern.

It will be a mixed tank , I will have to ramp up flow as I add SPS later on.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 07:11 PM
yeah what greg said, thse pumps are affordable powerful and controllable
what more could you ask for?
I am very interested in this one, Like the controllability and the fact that it's DC. My 4000 looks like it will work fine, but I think I will pick one up and play with it.

i like the look of sugar sand and make use of sand sifting stars and an orange spot goby right now in teh 90 i have a koralia 3 and 2 plus the flow from return pump but i dont have alot of sps..yet.. but my new tank the 180 will have 2 koralia 1050s and 2 koralia 750's unlessi can find another used koralia 3 to match one i own already.

should i have more flow ..maybe .. but thats what future upgrades are for.. nothings perfect thefirst time
I can't wait to be up and running and needing my next upgrade :lol:
I will have 2 or 3 different layers of sand. 3 if I decide to use sugar.
Right now I have 4 K4's ready to go and a K3 or 2 kicking around. Lots of options. But everytime I see a MP40 my wallet starts twitching......

It should, I run a 6000 on my 230g tank.

Good thing I put this poll up, my sump and skimmer would be overworked and not really doing what I need them to be doing.

Cugio
04-20-2012, 07:34 PM
Flow through the sump has nothing to do with what type of corals are kept. As I said above, the purpose of the return pump is to feed the skimmer water to process. The skimmer can only process so much water, so increasing flow through the sump does no good. If you have a grossly over-sized skimmer then increasing the flow through the sump could possibly achieve a bit heavier skimming, but that would be negligible.

Powerheads are for provide flow for the corals and preventing detritus settling. For SPS corals you're looking in the 50-100x turnover range where LPS and softies are happy with 10-25x turnover.

Very well put Mindy. Maybe decide on your skimmer first and then look at the return pump.

ensquire
04-20-2012, 11:22 PM
Skimz SM161
http://www.conceptaquatics.ca/index.php/aquarium-hardware/protein-skimmers/sm121-2.html

gregzz4
04-21-2012, 01:08 AM
Looks like a good choice for the $ and a nice footprint. It's even smaller than my SK181 with more air too :sad:

RuGlu6
04-21-2012, 02:25 AM
My vote is for Eheim or Water Blaster.
http://www.goreef.com/Water-Blaster-Pumps
.
I want my return pump to be silent and reliable and Eheim has proven to be just that. Water Blaster seems to be a good choice but i dont know about reliability though.

ensquire
05-04-2012, 03:53 PM
Thanks for your opinions.
I have gone with the Waveline as a back up. I like the efficiency and controllability aspects of this pump as I might not need quite as much flow as I was originally thinking.

BeanAnimal
08-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Waveline DC5000 would be my choice, go to www.rlss.ca (http://www.rlss.ca) to check it out. I believe or a least hope Mr. Dave @ concepts will be bringing some of these in as well as the larger size pump that is supposed to be coming out.

I just replaced a velocity T4 closed loop pump with a DC5000 and am more than impressed...

http://www.beananimal.com/other/waveline-dc5000-variable-speed-dc-pump.aspx

I have waited for a long time for a company to offer a reasonably priced variable speed pump.

I have a DC5000 and DC10000 and will be purchasing a few more. The ReeFlo dart is on its way out the door as soon as I get a chance.

The Grizz
08-23-2012, 04:46 AM
I just replaced a velocity T4 closed loop pump with a DC5000 and am more than impressed...

http://www.beananimal.com/other/waveline-dc5000-variable-speed-dc-pump.aspx

I have waited for a long time for a company to offer a reasonably priced variable speed pump.

I have a DC5000 and DC10000 and will be purchasing a few more. The ReeFlo dart is on its way out the door as soon as I get a chance.

Well I have been waiting 6 months or better for 2 - DC10000 & 1 - DC5000, can't seem to get them from here yet for some reason but hope they show REALLY REALLY soon as I would like to get building my 300.

gregzz4
08-23-2012, 07:57 AM
Huh, a post from the 'Bean' himself
Now Canreef is really national :mrgreen:

ensquire
08-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Well I have been waiting 6 months or better for 2 - DC10000 & 1 - DC5000, can't seem to get them from here yet for some reason but hope they show REALLY REALLY soon as I would like to get building my 300.

Are you trying to source it locally ( Alberta) ?
Just a short update on the pump. I can't imagine a quieter pump. My skimmer is the loudest noice in the sump area. No issues what so ever after 2 months.

The Grizz
08-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Are you trying to source it locally ( Alberta) ?
.


YEP!!

Doug
08-23-2012, 04:15 PM
I just replaced a velocity T4 closed loop pump with a DC5000 and am more than impressed...

http://www.beananimal.com/other/waveline-dc5000-variable-speed-dc-pump.aspx

I have waited for a long time for a company to offer a reasonably priced variable speed pump.

I have a DC5000 and DC10000 and will be purchasing a few more. The ReeFlo dart is on its way out the door as soon as I get a chance.


Welcome to Canreef Bean. Thanks for posting some of your usual wealth of equipment info.

BeanAnimal
08-30-2012, 01:22 PM
Thanks for the welcome guys...

It is my understanding that both SaltySupply and Aquarium Specialty are stocking and selling them. I have no affiliation with either. I don't have an affiliation with RLSS either.

In Canada, you will want to call Aquatic Kingdom in Mississauga.

It appears that the list of stores is growing quickly too:
http://www.rlss.ca/#!retailers

I think most of you know I am not in the "review" business and most of the time when I talk about a product, it is because I hate it :) I took the time to post here (and on my site) simply because I am that impressed with the pump so far. If my post, comments or link to my personal site is not appropriate or viewed as some a solicitation or violation of the TOS or spirit of your forum, please do remove it (them).

The back story for anybody who cares:

I have been looking for suitable DC aquarium pump for YEARS and even purchased a brushless DC motor or two to try and adapt to a ReeFlo wet end (as well as 3-phase AC motors). Bleh... too messy and too much hassle, noise, etc.


I am in the process of a possible total system redesign and rebuild and got the "variable speed" tunnel vision again so started looking again. A guy in our local club had the RD DC pump and it was expensive and died several times, so no go. I tried to source the Iwaki DC pump but it appears to be vaporware.

I found a youtube video for the waveline and was impressed. I called RLSS when I read more about the pumps and was even more impressed after talking to them.

No kidding, after I saw the youtube video and then talked to them, I was like a little kid waiting for a Daisy Red Rider! I don't honestly think I have been this anxious to get my hands on a new toy since I was a little kid. The last few times I have been even close, I have been sorly let down when my expectations have exceeded reality. In all honesty the only two aquarium products I have ever owned that have met my (maybe too) high expectations are the Waveline pumps and my Oceans Motions.

I certainly hope these pumps are long term durable, because I am designing my rebuild around them. I figure at $300 each and roughly 85W at full power for the DC1000, they are an efficient bargain any way you look at it.

Currently :
140W Velocity + all the heat it adds
150W ReeFlo snapper
35W Magnum 350 Power Filter (skimmer feed, mechanical filtration, media)

Roughly 325W + a fair amount of heat.

If I run 2x DC1000 (return and closed loop) and the DC5000 for the skimmer, media reactors etc. I am at 210 Watts WORST CASE! That is (at face value) 120W of savings right off the bat. The T4 was likely putting at least half of its power (~60W or so) of heat INTO THE TANK!

I gain control and impart less heat to the tank. So I figure more like 150W-200W of saving 24 hours per day. At $.25 per kWh, that is close to $.75 a day in electrical cost savings. That is $22 a month!

Now... I am not deluded into thinking these (or any equipment) will pay for itself. It may or may not. The IMPORTANT part is that you can beg, borrow, cheat or steal momey for equipment and the warden does not need to know. What the warden does see is the monthly electric bill! It follows that any fixed one time cost (recouped or not) to lower the montly appearance of expendature is well worth every penny! So I spend $1000 on new pumps, but the $300 electric bill goes to $275 and I am not a hero, but I am no longer the $300 villian, just a $275 villian. Do the same with some LEDs (that I am not yet fully sold on) and maybe another $20 a month... and I am only a $250 Villian! Remember to turn off more lights, shut the compressor in the shed off (I often forget) and I am a $200 villian and life is much better!

MKLKT
08-30-2012, 03:04 PM
Cool to see a reef celebrity :) On topic, I suppose it also depends on where you live and the temperature balance as removing residual heat from a pump might need to be offset by the aquarium heater (Canadian winters!), could possibly be even less efficient overall. Obviously every case is completely different and it's a matter of understanding your system and its components. Same situation as how watts/gallon still persists even though it means nothing.

To add to this discussion in my case for submersible pumps I recently switched a Sedra 9000 which had an impeller issue (unit itself was buzzing) and frankly was too small for my setup anyway for an Eheim Compact 5000+ and love it so far. Having the adjustable flow right on the pump saves the plumbing and head loss from any sort of flow adjuster above the pump. While not dead silent, it's got a very tolerable frequency of sound. Plus the pump is comically small compared to the Sedra, about half the size and ~1.5x stronger. You can also crank it down to the same flow as the other pumps if required, and it gives a fairly large range for a potential upgrade later.

BeanAnimal
08-30-2012, 03:26 PM
Cool to see a reef celebrity :) On topic, I suppose it also depends on where you live and the temperature balance as removing residual heat from a pump might need to be offset by the aquarium heater (Canadian winters!), could possibly be even less efficient overall. Obviously every case is completely different and it's a matter of understanding your system and its components. Same situation as how watts/gallon still persists even though it means nothing.

Not so sure about the celebrity status, in fact I would venture to say that I rub most the wrong way :)

You are correct, some folks may miss the added heat from a pump like the T4. That siad, nothing is "free" and in most cases the watts being shed as heat in the pump (heating the water) are watts not used to move water. That is a 140 watt pump that imparts 40w of heat into the water, 20W of heat into the room and 90W of energy into 1000GPH of water movement is likely less efficient (as a system) compared to a 40W heater and and a 90W pump that moves 1000GPH of water....

We can get into complicated scenarios but no matter what, we want our pumps to move more watts per gallon. If we submerge that pump in the sump, we are capturing the heat it sheds anyway and things are a bit more fuzzy. But yes, for external pump users who also have to run heaters, any watts being shed to the room and not the tank are "wasted". In those cases, a submerisble pump is likely a better choice, as ALL of the heat shed has to travel through the water :)


To add to this discussion in my case for submersible pumps I recently switched a Sedra 9000 which had an impeller issue (unit itself was buzzing) and frankly was too small for my setup anyway for an Eheim Compact 5000+ and love it so far. Having the adjustable flow right on the pump saves the plumbing and head loss from any sort of flow adjuster above the pump. Yeah, I have not had luck with the sedra, ocean runner, etc.

While the "adjuster" may be convenient, it does not save "head loss" :) Head loss is, well, head loss. The adjuster works by adding static head to the output of the pump, the same as adding more pipe (friction), more vertical head (gravity), more fittings (friction and turbulance), etc.

At any given head (read "the total resistance to flow that the pump sees") the pump will discharge a fixed amount of fluid. In other words, the pump curve is fixed and not relevant to HOW or what is causing the "head". It could be your adjuster, it could be your thumb over the discharge, it could be the 20 feet of discharge hose, etc. Hope that helps. We just know that for a given backpressure there will be a fixed volume of flow per time.

That said, I am sure that the compact 5000 is a great pump, as most (all?) of the eheims appear to be.

don.ald
08-30-2012, 04:01 PM
Well I have been waiting 6 months or better for 2 - DC10000 & 1 - DC5000, can't seem to get them from here yet for some reason but hope they show REALLY REALLY soon as I would like to get building my 300.

http://reefsupplycanada.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-product-category.cgi?d=reef-supply-canada&pc=14266

MKLKT
08-30-2012, 05:23 PM
I forgot to mention that I had meant with the adjuster it was better in that it's considerably smaller and simple. It requires a lot less of a rube goldberg device so less chances of friction or turbulance in order to reduce the flow not that there was zero loss. :p Basically you've got more control over exactly how much head is applied.

The differences between even internal/external with the same wattage pump and how it'll affect the tank and room just reinforces the point of how specific to a setup each piece of gear is. You just need nice accurate specs! You're technically inclined so I'm sure we could talk ad naseum about these things, haha.

nrosdal
08-31-2012, 12:11 AM
Well I have been waiting 6 months or better for 2 - DC10000 & 1 - DC5000, can't seem to get them from here yet for some reason but hope they show REALLY REALLY soon as I would like to get building my 300.


Jelous?? :mrgreen:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/sheetmetal/2012-08-22195606.jpg

The Grizz
08-31-2012, 12:15 AM
Jelous?? :mrgreen:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/sheetmetal/2012-08-22195606.jpg

Yes YES I am:Banane24: you big TEASE!!! Heard today that my pumps where shipped out on Monday to Concepts :Banane01::Banane01::Banane01::Banane01:I am sure Dave is getting sick of me bugging him ( SORRY DAVE )

ensquire
08-31-2012, 04:23 AM
Yes YES I am:Banane24: you big TEASE!!! Heard today that my pumps where shipped out on Monday to Concepts :Banane01::Banane01::Banane01::Banane01:I am sure Dave is getting sick of me bugging him ( SORRY DAVE )


Finally HEHE will need a review