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Nemain
03-10-2004, 04:59 PM
Can you tell its spring break up - w00 do I ever have nothing to do!

I have been talking with blain from thesea.org and he said that he will ship to the boarder for pick up. Anyone know how difficult it is to get livestock across? IE: forms, duties, etc.

Thanks,

Beth

nickb
03-10-2004, 05:11 PM
There's recently been a couple of related discussions on importing to Canada. Corals are covered under CITES. You would need an import license (costs $300 I've been told unless you can 'borrow one'). And appropriate permissions. I understand that live rock is also covered under CITES. Ornamental fish can be imported without needing a license except for seahorses, sharks and a few other similar animals. I don't know where zoos, etc. would count. but, if it were me, I'd want to make 100% sure that I had the legalities right since the penalities can be very severe.

Quinn
03-10-2004, 05:14 PM
I believe only stonies fall under CITES.

Nemain
03-10-2004, 05:26 PM
Looks like some softies are in there as well, but it appears to be only on wild specimens..

Does anyone know whom I would have to call to find out?

Thanks,

Beth

Veng68
03-10-2004, 06:43 PM
Looks like some softies are in there as well, but it appears to be only on wild specimens..

Does anyone know whom I would have to call to find out?

Thanks,

Beth

It won't be worth it becasue cites fees & inspection fees will be like $200+ :eek: even if you one get 1 frag :eek:

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

UnderWorldAquatics
03-10-2004, 06:54 PM
All corals, all clams, all live rock, all cities protected fish and inverts, all macro algae that comes on rock, all require cities permits and wont be worth your wile unless you are placing a very large order of at least a few boxes full of livestock.(over 100+ pieces+

Nemain
03-10-2004, 07:13 PM
I understand that the cost may be a little overwhelming, I just really would like to know what the process is, and who I need to call to find out how to get the permits.

Thank you,

beth

Quinn
03-10-2004, 07:23 PM
All corals... all require cities permits...

This is not entirely true, as I indicated previously. However, amending my above statements, some corals besides scleractinians are listed by CITES. Rather than attempting to delineate the species which are and aren't listed, I would suggest checking the particular coral you are interested in at http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html.

Delphinus
03-10-2004, 07:28 PM
Don't forget though Quinn, that although a softey like a mushroom may not be CITES listed, if it's attached to a piece of live rock rubble, guess what, the live rock is CITES.

And gosh darn it Kyle, it's CITES not cities :razz:

www.cites.org

Nemain, I don't know what the process is per se either, but it goes something like this. The exporter needs to have a CITES permit, and if you're carrying livestock (CITES or non-CITES) I believe you might also need a Fish & Wildlife permit from the U.S. You might want to give Canada Customs a call and see what they advise (haha, have fun with that phone call, that won't be a long and runaroundish type call at all :rolleyes: )

Quinn
03-10-2004, 07:38 PM
Therefore one would have to make sure any frags purchased are not mounted. :mrgreen:

I did a quick search and found that, obviously, clams in the genus Tridacna are listed. Members of the class Zoanthidea are not. Neither are any anemones from what I could tell. The members of the family Nephtheidae are not. My search also gave me even more good reason not to try to identify the species of Acropora sp. I own - yielding 184 members of the genus Acropora.

Regardless though, there are probably other restrictions. It would probably a headache and a half.

UnderWorldAquatics
03-10-2004, 08:00 PM
Ok you got me.... you can order a loose mushroom coral, which is classified as an anemone, but you cant get them if they are attached to rock as they usually are, there is no difference between captive raised and wild caught corals that I know of as of yet. Any coral that has a skeletal structure or a base of rock (which helps to build the reefs up)is cites protected(basically all corals) Also as tony mentioned, you will also need a $55.00 US Funds, US Fish and Wildlife Certificate with ANY order of livestock. If you think you can do otherwise, try it and pat yourself on the back for the nice donation to your local public aquarium(thats who customs usually donates said livestock too) Try and buy Zoanthidea that are not attached to live rock... and try to buy any Nephtheidae that are not attached to live rock as well... and anemones are not corals they are not cites protected...

r_wellwood
03-10-2004, 08:05 PM
Just to share an experience: I brought back a Rose Anemone across the border from Portland via the Vancouver Airport. Did some research on Cites prior to this and made sure the specimen wasn't listed. Printed off that information and also had the seller provide a signed statement of what was being sold, that it came from this person's tank, etc.

I made sure on the Customs form that I indicated I was bringing livestock into the country. They asked what it was, I told them. Didn't end up being an issue in the end, no hassles (thankfully).

Just be willing to give up the specimen(s) if you are getting a lot of static from Customs, and be upfront and knowledgable.

RW

Nemain
03-10-2004, 08:07 PM
Wow I finally figured something out! Looks like the only one that needs a permit is the exporting country. Therefor dun dun dee dun - I can get my corals NP. It will still cost an arm and a leg with duty etc. But he exports to Canada already =-).

I think the only reason he likes for it to be picked up at the boarder is for health issues perhaps?

Anyways, I will let you know how everything goes =)

Thanks,

beth

UnderWorldAquatics
03-10-2004, 08:19 PM
I am very interested too......

Oh yeah, sorry bout my spelling Tony :redface:

sleeman
03-10-2004, 08:28 PM
Beth,
I have brought a fair bit of stuff across the border. Some shipped to Edmonton and some shipped to a friends house in Washington then diven up by my father. I have never brought livestock across. Call 1 800 461 9999. this is canada custom information. when the guy starts talking just hit 0 and you will get a person. They will put you onto someone who will know what you need to do. Make sure you take down peoples names and if you can call the crossing you are going to pick up from before going there that will help. I would make sure you can prove that none of the goods are on the cites listing. I am not sure how you would do that.
Personally, I don't think this is going to be worth the hassle.

Sorry,

Al

Delphinus
03-10-2004, 08:44 PM
Wow I finally figured something out! Looks like the only one that needs a permit is the exporting country. Therefor dun dun dee dun - I can get my corals NP. It will still cost an arm and a leg with duty etc. But he exports to Canada already =-).

I think the only reason he likes for it to be picked up at the boarder is for health issues perhaps?

Anyways, I will let you know how everything goes =)

Thanks,

beth

I'm not sure I'm on the same page as you here. A couple cautionary notes ....

1. I could be wrong, but I think CITES needs to be issued from the country of origin for the species or at least somewhere where the species is native. Here you need to be careful. If you can't find "Acropora somethingorother" (for hypothetical example) in U.S. territorial waters, a CITES permit can't be issued in the U.S. for that. So frags from corals that were originally imported into the U.S. can't really be re-exported quite so easily. In the case of zoanthids, however, I beleive that a lot of them are found off Florida so in this case you may be OK with a U.S.-issued CITES permit.

2. Forgive my cynicism but I highly doubt it's for health reasons that he just ships to a border crossing and then you cross the border yourself, pick them up, and cross the border back carrying the livestock with you. In this scenario, he is nicely exonerated from any risk (all he did was ship from a U.S. destination to another U.S. destination) and thus for the actual border crossing you have taken on the full risk exposure.

Obviously, it is possible to import livestock (and as a few people have mentioned). I'm just trying to point out there are a LOT of points to consider. Be careful, whatever you do.

Nemain
03-10-2004, 09:01 PM
The specimen is collected in the US, and is the exporting country. I have already emailed to find out if he has the permit and not to worry, I will be sure that I see the document and have everything arranged post hoc.. As for it not being worth my while, I disagree, he can get me something that I very much want, and I can not find it elsewhere. Getting what I want is always worth it :mrgreen:

As for him shipping to the customs office, he ships to the Canadian side, he is still the exporter, and as such, still has some semblance of responsibility.

Did I mention I love this spell checker?

beth

sleeman
03-10-2004, 09:20 PM
Well come on then Beth. Spill the beans. What are you getting? Does he have a web site? Gonna do a group order?

Cheers,

Al

UnderWorldAquatics
03-10-2004, 09:53 PM
its pretty cut and dry, if you are bringing a hard coral or a coral attached to live rock across the border, you will need a cites permit. Additionally if you are importing a livestock order of any substantial size you will probably have to pay a US fish and wildlife fee. If it is worth it for you, great, all the power to you and I hope it goes smoothly for you and the livestock. some people get away with things thats they shouldnt because some customs agents are not very knowledgable, others such as most of the ones at airports will be very dilligent in regards to their job. I have gone to ridiculious expense to get ahold of certain livestock, so I know what you mean when you say its worth it. Its all relative!
(whatever you do, dont fall in love with any deep zone livestock, unless you win the lotto)

Nemain
03-10-2004, 09:55 PM
When everything is figured out, and if I can get more than one thing across the Forsaken boarder, you better believe it will be a group order =)

Will still be a few weeks for me to get everything in order 100%

And i will not be heading down until Easter

Beth

Quinn
03-11-2004, 12:34 AM
I have heard in the past that Perun is willing to sell to Canadians, but I've never actually met someone who followed through. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I realized something concerning the rock - first off, the rock doesn't have to be labelled live. The frag could be glued to just about anything, really. Second, how are the border officials going to know it's live, if they even know what live rock is (doubtful). You can work around customs snags by how you label things. At my old job, we once had a large order of award medallions being shipped to South Carolina. The first batch was labelled "medallions" and went through without a problem. The second batch was labelled "ribbons" by mistake, and all hell broke loose, since textiles are regulated somehow, and because the country of origin of the ribbons on the medallions was some Caribbean island not falling under the normal CA/US export/import laws. But when the main product was the medallions, no problems...

UnderWorldAquatics
03-11-2004, 12:39 AM
like I said, lots of people do it, some dont get caught, some do, some have their house taken away and go to jail, others dont....
maslabeling things is a bad idea, they are usually pretty lax on ignorance, but outright cheating the system will see you fare badly....

Quinn
03-11-2004, 12:45 AM
This wasn't mislabelling per say, it was just an interpretation of what inside the box was more important.

I do agree that if you are truly breaking the rules, there is a chance you will have to face the repercussions. Although I'm not sure how they'd manage to seize your house? Maybe you'd have to sell to afford a lawyer...

UnderWorldAquatics
03-11-2004, 12:55 AM
I dont have the link so it just heresay, but very recently 2 guys doing exactly what you described got caught, and it was determined they were selling the livestock once getting across the border, I believe the fine was $250,000.00 and a jail term of 5 years, his house was seized to help pay the fine.

StirCrazy
03-11-2004, 02:08 AM
I dont have the link so it just heresay, but very recently 2 guys doing exactly what you described got caught, and it was determined they were selling the livestock once getting across the border, I believe the fine was $250,000.00 and a jail term of 5 years, his house was seized to help pay the fine.

hehe they were doing thousand of tones of rock harvested from closed areas though :mrgreen:

Steve

DBM
03-11-2004, 04:13 AM
Alright, like Kyle I'm in the industry so I'll help. I'm the paranoid type so I've checked things out thoroughly.

Here's how it goes.

If you cross the border into Canada as a hobbiest you won't need a f&w permit. This is needed if you are importing into the U.S. or shipping out as a commercial venture.

If its on a piece of scleractinia (live rock) it's covered under CITES II, same with acropora, or any other reef building or hard skeleton type of coral. For this you need the original copy of the CITES permit from the country of origin. You will not get this from a hobbiest or retail store in the U.S.

You can bring across zooanthids or mushrooms loose or attached to a piece of concrete. Don't bother trying to bring across any leathers or sinularia or anything on a piece of live rock.

Fish are easy, just drive across declaring you've got some tropical fish for your tank. Personally I think you're nuts to even try and cross with any type of invert.

zulu_principle
03-11-2004, 06:43 AM
Agree with everything DMB says except for one thing,

The cites that comes is not the orignal export cites but a Export/Re-Export Continuation Sheet under Cites issued by US Fish & Wildlife.

I'm not sure as a hobbiest how you would get this, its issued by US Fish & Wildlife Service maybe they would be a good source for you to talk to.

If your thinking about 1 or 2 pieces, its expensive but zoos on eBay were selling for $600 US.

For those on the board that have done this without a broker or someone else leading the way they will understand when I say its a steep learning curve and when you talk to Canda Customs there is 2 people in all of BC that look after this and their concern is making sure the export documents are in place.

Best of Luck, let me know if I can help.



Wendell

There is one retail (online) store I know will get the cites completed but the minimum order is a little high. Talk to Dr. Mac.

Veng68
03-11-2004, 08:17 AM
Wendell

There is one retail (online) store I know will get the cites completed but the minimum order is a little high. Talk to Dr. Mac.

Hey Wendell,

On Dr Macs site he says they only sell within the USA. Have you ever order from him? I would think only a retailer could buy from him if the minimum order is so steep. How much is a minimum order?

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

DBM
03-11-2004, 08:56 AM
Wendell is right about the re-export permit. Wouldn't USFW need the original CITES export permit to issue a re-export permit? This was my thinking because anyone that isn't purchasing directly from the country of origin wouldn't have access to this original permit to show USFW.

Just a question. I'm not an American importer, but I'm interested none the less.

zulu_principle
03-11-2004, 03:11 PM
Probably true DMB.

As for Dr. Mac, better you pick up the phone and give him a call.


Wendell

Quinn
03-11-2004, 04:14 PM
If you're going to order a large quantity from Dr. Mac, I'm assuming he's just considering you a reseller, and therefore it makes as much sense to go through a wholesaler in LA. But the minimum orders are large.

Van down by the river
03-11-2004, 05:53 PM
I think it's commendable that you want to try to do it yourself.
I question the motives. To save a few dollars? To get something you think can't be acquired from your local aquarium shops? Have you given them the opportunity? What is it exactly that is worth the trouble? I've seen almost every colored coral from the states in Canada as well. Many even in some of the many Canreefers tanks.

Everyone keeps telling you to call customs and it seems from the replies that you keep avoiding this step. Customs will not take kindly to a person trying to weasel through the rules or loopholes. If they feel that In anyway that your shipment is not declared properly they CAN and WILL seize it no questions asked. The seller will have no responsibility in this, he knows if there is no re-export cites it will not get through customs.

As to mislabelling and taking a chance, I think is a big disservice to the hobby. Being both reckless and showing no concern for the animals whatsoever. Would you try to sneak a family pet or child across if there was a chance of losing them? Certainly not. Hoping the customs agent will be careless and unobservant should not be an option.

Of course the shipper is willing to send the shipment. He's already been paid.
You are just a hobbyist with a small order and if he never hears from you again his business will be no worse off. There's a reason many US companies don't ship to Canada, it's not worth their time unless it's a store doing a larger order.

I think that doing your homework is in order.
I think that the end result of that would be that you will save no time or money over buying it locally.
If there is demand for an item, stores will attempt to provide it. If they are unable to aquire it, contact Wendell at Ocean Aquatics or John at JnL's

Nemain
03-11-2004, 06:00 PM
Maybe you didnt read my posts, I did call customs, I also called CITES yesterday. I also have my companies broker looking into the issue to insure that i have the proper information.

I take offence to the fact that you would infer that I am a weasle. Poor taste IMHO.

I posted this as to get information on other reefers thoughts and experiences.

Not everything in life is about money. No it isnt cheaper, no it isnt easier, and no I havent been able to find this coral any where else.

Aquattro
03-11-2004, 06:27 PM
If they are unable to aquire it, contact Wendell at Ocean Aquatics or John at JnL's

Since she's from Edmonton, maybe someone at AI can obtain stuff for her....

vjvl51
03-12-2004, 02:23 PM
My advice is to get everything in writing. I knew I would be bring back to Canada something (not fish related). I called my Canada Customs. I even drove to the border crossing that I would be using and asked about the documents/procedures required. The day that I did bring the item across, a different agent handled the transaction since the agent that I had talked to was off that day. What I was told previously and what was required by this new agent was completely different. Since I didn't have the first agent's comments in writing with his signature there was nothing anyone would do for me. Remember - the agent you deal with at the time of crossing is right. If you disagree, the item goes into storage until things are resolved which can take weeks.

Once I crossed from the US into Canada, driving my mother's car (she was with me). The agent at the border would not let me continue to drive her car since it had NY license plates. According to the agent, it is illegal to drive a car with NY license plates when you have a Canadian driver's license. Once home I called my provincial police. They had never heard of such a law.

I wish you luck but I wouldn't attempt it given my experience at the local crossings.

Vickie

bvoss
03-22-2004, 01:38 AM
I did the whole CITES thing and eventually gave up. I moved from the U.S. to Montreal a few months ago and invested quite a bit of time figuring out the CITES process. I ended up talking to the Marine Biologist in DC before I gave up on the process and sold my tank out on Reef Central.

The thing you need to understand is that CITES is primarily an EXPORT control. It is intended to limit developing countries ability to chop up thier fauna and sell it. If you have an export permit, customs probably will not have much trouble with it.

Here is the good news. CITES only covers (unless I missed something) reef building (LPS and SPS) corals. Fish, softies, and anenomes are not listed. You do need CITES for clams (I had a beautiful Crocea).

You need lots of data and lots of time to get through the CITES process. At least 8 weeks. You need to know things like a statement from every importer explaining where they got the coral and proof it was under CITES export control. Most LFS's do not have this. It is held by the importer (usually somebody by LAX for the U.S.). If the sample is propagated in captivity, you need a statement from the fragger stating when it was done, and by whom. Consider that when you go to your next frag swap. :rolleyes:

I hope this helps. I wish there were less red tape, but I also wish that reef world wide were not in such a rapid state of decline. I personal believe they should ease up on the hobbiests like us. Polution and sedimentation are killing the reefs. We are trying to grow them.

Good luck.

Bill

zulu_principle
03-22-2004, 07:43 AM
If the sample is propagated in captivity, you need a statement from the fragger stating when it was done, and by whom. Consider that when you go to your next frag swap. :rolleyes:

Bill

This unfortunately is not my experience with CCRA, US-Fish&Wildlife, CITES or even Agriculture Canada.

I certainly wish it was, it would open up my market, huge..........



Wendell